Thread: Devil's advocate

Ok, up front, I'm stirring the pot a little, so don't anyone take it personally and get too bent out of shape.

Predictably, there has been disagreement with my personal attitude towards the rattlesnake roundup and the general extinction of rattlesnakes and cottonmouths. To each his/her own, no problem with that. Now let me throw one back at ya if you will.

I can see how people consider the roundup inhumane, unnecessary, etc. But if you can't handle a venemous snake and you "keep" it for the sole purpose of looking at it, is it not also inhumane to trap it for the remainder of its life in a small box? At least with other animals you can handle and interact with them and give them a little freedom to roam. Further, if these snakes aren't endangered, what's the point of keeping them in captivity if you can't do a dang thing with em?

Now if you want to keep an animal that is just waiting for the chance to kill you, then by all means, don't let me stand in the way. That's entirely up to you, just like it is with the people that have lions and other exotics. Again, just stirring the pot out of curiosity on the responses you crazy folks will come up with. I don't condemn you for doing it, and I don't care either way.... just don't hire me to babysit your vipers when you go on vacation.


...on Earth, as it is in Texas

Originally Posted by Txpitdog

Now if you want to keep an animal that is just waiting for the chance to kill you, then by all means, don't let me stand in the way.

Seems to be the other way around to me. I'm pretty sure that rattlesnakes don't hold human round-ups. Although I could see where they might want to start.

I dont see the point in being a devils advocate. You stated your position quite clearly in the other thread. People have their own personal reasons for wanting to keep hots. If you want to ask people why they keep hots, go to youtube, type in Viperkeeper and ask him Or look in this section and find someone who keeps them and ask them why. (if you are genuinely curious)

We are encroaching on the native species where ever we live, no matter what animal it is. They were here first and we moved in on them. I support the fact that we need a safe place to live, so I think that to catch and relocate animals that are dangerous to me, my family, or community is okay. The senseless killing of animals in never warranted.

As far as keeping hots... I myself will never keep hots. I love to look at them just as much as the next guy, but I do not have the experience to deal with them. I have no ill feelings towards those that do keep hots, as long as they do it responsibly. In fact I applaud those that do keep hots and have aided in the research of what the venom does to other organisms. It is those keepers and scientists that have helped create the anti-venom to help us in the event of a run in with these animals.

Generally I take great pains to hide the fact that there is nothing that I love more that to rip an illogical argument into itty bitty shreds but in this case I'm going to make an exception. Since I am so eager to reply to this post I am currently typing on my laptop while steering with my knee in the dark stay tuned for an elaboration at some more opportune time.

@judgment
The term they use in the Navy is "Standby to Standby."

i know most people dont take there gtp or etb out to play(i know there are always exeptions)...is it inhumane to keep them in a small box for their lives??
and what about people who have tropical fish?
you dont take ur fish out to play so are they cruel for keeping them in a small glass enclosure for there life?
should we put them all back in the ocean?

i consider animals like this to be living artwork.

the roundup is an inbred redneck, ignorant thing to partake in and I signed a petition a while back to help end them. This is not tradition, it is utter mass genocidal ignorance.

Inbred.... nah. Redneck, oh yeah definitely. Maybe not quite as necky as a Skynyrd concert, but probably more so than NASCAR. I think the tackiest redneckiest thing they had was the snakeskin Skoal can holster. Either that or the golf balls.

Not sure I'd agree on the fish analogy, but I see the point. It's certainly not as bad as keeping tons of dogs on short chains just to breed them and definitely nowhere in the realm of Mr. Vick.

First a short preamble:

Article 1: Let me thank you first of all for setting the tone of this discussion. The dismissive and disrespectful attitude you have shown toward anyone who doesn't share your woefully uneducated opinions has made it incredibly easy for me to speak my mind with the greatest freeness of speech. It is rare that I get to switch from the 16oz. gloves to the 10oz ones.

Article 2: I am amazed that someone who claims to be interested in reptiles, and consequently must be aware of the prejudice caused in large part by misinformation and misplaced fear that is directed toward them by the general public, would assume the same prejudicial stance toward a reptile species for the exact same reason.

Originally Posted by Txpitdog

is it not also inhumane to trap it for the remainder of its life in a small box?

No. Rattlesnakes are ambush predators. This means that they are happy to sit in one spot and do nothing if their needs are met. All they want is: a.)to be safe b.) the right temperature gradient c.) something edible to wander within striking distance d.) to procreate.

With the exception of procreation the most basic setup fulfills all these needs at least 30 times better than being in the wild - and an experienced hot keeper can handle the procreation as well.

Why 30 times better you ask? Average Rattle snake litter - let's say 30 babies - maybe one survives to adulthood. Average CBB rattlesnake litter - 30 babies - maybe all 30 survive to adulthood.

Originally Posted by Txpitdog

what's the point of keeping them in captivity if you can't do a dang thing with em?

This question is just ignorant. What do you do with this:


or this:



or this:



or this:



You look at them. You appreciate them because they are beautiful.

Originally Posted by Txpitdog

Now if you want to keep an animal that is just waiting for the chance to kill you

It is not "just waiting for the chance to kill you." Rattlesnakes, as I mentioned before, are ambush predators - and they don't think we are food. This means the only way they will attack you is if YOU practically step on them. Even then they would usually rather you just go away.

Not too long ago I saw a show on animal planet.
God help me I am getting old but I can't remember where exactly the show focused on, but a colony of rattlesnakes have been hunted down severely there.
It reached a point where the only rattlesnakes to have survived are the ones who were the least eager to use their rattle- thus giving away their presence. So now there's a rather big population of rattlesnakes that do not warn prior to striking.

These things tend to bite us back on our behinds, for one.
Maintaining a captive population from which snakes are bred for the purpose of being display animals doesn't really compare well with roundup killing. Sure, there are some who are WC still, but there's an ongoing attempt to end that because we do need a population of venomous snakes in captivity in order to be able to produce anti-venom and other medical research.

Snakes in captivity usually receive the optimal conditions possible, live longer than their wild counterparts, get fed, and get to breed on many occasions too- I can't accept a comparison to the hunting down and killing of rattlesnakes. And that's without considering that people try to make a profit by said roundup- taking money for "spectacles" and selling snake-skin products... If it's as necessary a step as you present it, I think the snakes still deserve more respect and be humanely euthanized and buried, rather than serve as accessories and be forced to be in a stressful situation in their last moments.

Animals feel pain, fear and anxiety. I see no justification to needlessly induce these.

Originally Posted by judgment

It is not "just waiting for the chance to kill you." Rattlesnakes, as I mentioned before, are ambush predators - and they don't think we are food. This means the only way they will attack you is if YOU practically step on them. Even then they would usually rather you just go away.

Your 100% correct. Growing up on a ranch in south Texas every summer I came in contact with rattlesnakes almost daily. 9 times out of 10 they would go the other way and those are only the ones we saw. I cant imagine how many others saw us before we saw them and took off and we never knew they were three. Only rarely did we have to kill any of them because they got too close to the house or were inside the chicken coop.

My grandfather who lives on the ranch wouldnt ever want to harm them unless he had to because he understood their place out there. He always had cats too to keep them away from the house but even when he would come across them going for a walk with his shotgun, he never shot any. He would always tell us where he saw them but never shot any, even though he had hundreds of chances had he wanted to just get rid of as many as he could.


On the opposite side of the argument.. My other grandfather had a friend who I met at about age 12..this man was already mid to late 80s when I met him, but he was a snake hunter. He made his living finding, trapping, and skinning snakes. He made all kinds of stuff out of their skins and made a living that way. In my mind, he harvested these animals as a way of life and not just to kill them. He was great at what he did. The very first time I met him he had 2 skins from 2 snakes he caught in back to back days. One, from neck to tip of rattle was 7' even, the other 7'1. I remember the rattlers were as big as his hands. I'm not 100% but I can almost guarantee that he used the meat as well and not just the skins. I remember telling him where I saw snakes all the time and he said he had enough and didnt need any more at the time...which to me shows me that he had a respect for the animal also. Its late and im rambling... time out.

Originally Posted by Spo0led

On the opposite side of the argument.. My other grandfather had a friend who I met at about age 12..this man was already mid to late 80s when I met him, but he was a snake hunter. He made his living finding, trapping, and skinning snakes. He made all kinds of stuff out of their skins and made a living that way. In my mind, he harvested these animals as a way of life and not just to kill them. He was great at what he did. The very first time I met him he had 2 skins from 2 snakes he caught in back to back days. One, from neck to tip of rattle was 7' even, the other 7'1. I remember the rattlers were as big as his hands. I'm not 100% but I can almost guarantee that he used the meat as well and not just the skins. I remember telling him where I saw snakes all the time and he said he had enough and didnt need any more at the time...which to me shows me that he had a respect for the animal also. Its late and im rambling... time out.

That was actually a very interesting read.
I do think though that we have come to a time where one can earn a living in many other ways. It is quite possible that it was an acceptable means to make a living at the time. I think that today you have a deal more options, it may have been necessary at the time, but it is no longer so- if only by virtue of the fact that we have found more humane ways to put animals down.

By the sound of things, he was respectful towards the animals he killed. I don't think that roundups show any reverence or respect towards snakes

Originally Posted by Thunder Child

By the sound of things, he was respectful towards the animals he killed.

That is EXACTLY where I was trying to go with that. Thank you.

Excellent points. Standing down.

Originally Posted by Spo0led

On the opposite side of the argument.. My other grandfather had a friend who I met at about age 12..this man was already mid to late 80s when I met him, but he was a snake hunter. He made his living finding, trapping, and skinning snakes. He made all kinds of stuff out of their skins and made a living that way. In my mind, he harvested these animals as a way of life and not just to kill them. He was great at what he did. The very first time I met him he had 2 skins from 2 snakes he caught in back to back days. One, from neck to tip of rattle was 7' even, the other 7'1. I remember the rattlers were as big as his hands. I'm not 100% but I can almost guarantee that he used the meat as well and not just the skins. I remember telling him where I saw snakes all the time and he said he had enough and didnt need any more at the time...which to me shows me that he had a respect for the animal also. Its late and im rambling... time out.

I don't even know if that is on the opposite side of the argument. It's entirely different to make a living this way. There are still people who do so with many types of animals. He didn't go out and find them by the thousands for wholesale, wreckless slaughter. He respected the animals and used them as a natural resource, not as a spectacle.

Things like the Rattlesnake Round up did have a place once in society. There were more snakes and less people. (Certainly less availible education, but that is a different discussion...)Now, more people are participating, more snakes are needlessly dying, and there are places where the population is severely threatened. For who? For what? Bloodsport. Against such reckless hate, that chance do they have? If this was a fluffy bunny round up, you know PETA would be all over it, and legislators would be trying to stop it. Pathetic. I hope everyone who goes and kills their rattler feels powerful. I pity the attitude of those who get off on this sort of thing...

PETA is pretty worthless, both in principle and in practice. All it is is a club to make people feel good about themselves. The Humane Society and SPCA do more for animal protection than PETA will ever do.

Back to the wild hogs, they aren't game animals in Texas, and you can hunt/kill them in unlimited numbers by any means. If you want to hunt one, fine. If you want to shoot one with a dynamite tipped arrow like Bo and Luke Duke, go for it. Trap, kill, and burn em. Just get rid of them. Not a peep from PETA.

Asian carp and snakefish are infesting our lakes and waterways. Texas Parks and Wildlife perform fishkills to try and wipe out large numbers of these invasive species. Not a peep from PETA.

They aren't at the round up and they don't protest alligator hunting. They claim rifle hunting isn't sporting enough, but bow hunting makes the animal bleed too much. They throw blood on mink furs, but wear Birkenstocks while doing it.

But don't you dare milk and cow! That's cruel! Instead ice cream should be made from human breast milk.

http://www.wptz.com/r/17539127/detail.html

Idiocy at its finest.