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    Thread: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

    1. #1
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      10-16-2017 08:59 PM

      Default Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      I feed my 1year old hog island last Monday. I had forgotten that I had put skin cream on my hands. I washed before feeding but I think there was transfer of residue. It's called love butter. Very strong smelling. L.kinda like burts bees. She threw up the following day and is not acting right. I fear I have poisoned her. I'm so sad and upset at my oversight. Never have I made such a careless mistake. I'm basically crying as I type. My heart is broken. My daughter will be so sad. Any chance of a bounce back? It's been a week since the tragic feeding screw up. Please advise if possible. Thanks. I have never had a snake die in my care from neglect. I'm crushed. Walt

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      Default Re: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      How recently had she eaten when you handled her? Did you give her a bath? I would hold off on giving a bath as it might soak into the skin more just in case. If it is a "natural" product like burts bees then that hopefully shouldn't be an issue. I think it might have been a regurge because of the handling after feeding. You don't want to handle until after 48 hours after feeding.

    3. #3
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      10-16-2017 08:59 PM

      Default Re: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      I guess I was unclear. The residue from my skin got on the mice she ate. Then she threw up. I have not held her at all. Vomiting happened after the feed not hsndling. I fear I have poisoned her. She is having difficulty moving properly. I watch her daily so I know100% there is something badly wrong. Any thoughts on the chance of recovery? I'm so sad my slip up has cost her. I will never make this trajic mistake again but I fear the damage is done. Thoughts?
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    4. #4
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      10-17-2017 10:36 PM

      Default Re: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      Quote Originally Posted by Walter3rd View Post
      I guess I was unclear. The residue from my skin got on the mice she ate. Then she threw up. I have not held her at all. Vomiting happened after the feed not hsndling. I fear I have poisoned her. She is having difficulty moving properly. I watch her daily so I know100% there is something badly wrong. Any thoughts on the chance of recovery? I'm so sad my slip up has cost her. I will never make this trajic mistake again but I fear the damage is done. Thoughts?
      The fact that she threw up the following day is a good sign, actually. It means whatever was ingested didn't stay too long & was probably more of an irritant
      & maybe not even absorbed. Many hand creams are petroleum-based, and yes, not something any living creature should ingest. I am having difficulty believing
      that you'd have had SO much cream on your hands that a significant amount could have gotten onto the prey she was fed...it's more likely that the rodent itself
      was spoiled or tainted in some way. Have you fed rodents from this source before, & with no issues? While you want to avoid getting hand cream on a snake's
      food in the future, I don't believe this is the real issue (you even washed your hands!), so don't beat yourself up too badly, ok Walt?

      And this might not even be related to what she was fed. I am very concerned that you say she is not moving normally...& that your gut tells you that something
      is badly wrong. (she might have fallen "wrong" in her cage, for example, or have gastric torsion...was the meal too big?) This calls for a professional diagnosis
      IN PERSON from a vet, not guesses from us online. She is a year old...but how long have YOU had her? This might be some sort of disease...or, in time maybe
      all will be ok...there is no way I can tell you, I wish I could. I simply doubt (& HOPE) that any hand cream sold for human use would be SO toxic as to cause the
      issues you are describing (assuming your "guilty feelings" aren't resulting in a gross exaggeration of symptoms) and I'm crossing my fingers that your snake
      makes a good recovery. I know that you're a very caring keeper and I hope you get some good answers (& help for her) soon. It's been a week, right?

      If she is having trouble moving all this time, it IS serious....it suggests neurological damage, please consult a vet a.s.a.p. And take the container of hand cream,
      so he can check ingredients anyway. (I'm curious, when you get a chance, please post the ingredients here too?) I hope you don't have too many frozen feeders
      from this source...I don't think I'd trust them, especially if the vet cannot find any other explanation besides what your snake has eaten.

      (listing this as a "skin issue" was a little confusing...but hey, I know you are stressed, we all would be too.)
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      10-17-2017 10:36 PM

      Default Re: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      Just an afterthought: how many snakes do you have? and how long have you had them? What is the most recent acquisition?

      Are any other snakes showing unusual symptoms? Are they in the same room? Please consider (?) the possibility that this 'could be' something contagious-

      If you have other snakes, please quarantine this one from the others...feed, handle or tend to all the others first, then this sick one last, and afterwards,
      shower & change clothes, etc. And never re-offer food that one snake has touched & rejected to another snake...just in case.

      Keeping my fingers crossed for you & your snake(s).
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      Default Re: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      I fully support what Noelle said. In the meantime you may want to double check your temps and humidity and add fresh water every day so that she will drink because they do lose fluids vomiting.
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    7. #7
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      10-16-2017 08:59 PM

      Default Re: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      I have had her since baby. No other snakes in house. Only food from same place. Always eats fine. My gut is telling me it's the hand cream. Do not think fall. List of ingredients in cream is - glycine soja which is soybean oil, prunus amygdalus dulcis which is sweet almond oil, beeswax, shea butter, cocoa seed butter, fragrance. Temps and humidity are perfect and water is fresh. I've been watching her daily since purchase and she acts very predictable. This happened immediately after feeding. I watched her try to climb up on her basking spot and curl around and almost fell off of the area. Definitely acting poisoned and or neurologically disoriented. Not sure if it's possible to recover from this kind of situation.
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    8. #8
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      10-17-2017 04:31 PM

      Default Re: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      If you can find a local snake vet (not an exotic vet who says that they can also do reptiles) and take her to them, they might be able to offer a solution if it is poisoning. It would be better than doing nothing.
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    9. #9
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      10-17-2017 10:36 PM

      Default Re: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      Quote Originally Posted by Walter3rd View Post
      I have had her since baby. No other snakes in house. Only food from same place. Always eats fine. My gut is telling me it's the hand cream. Do not think fall. List of ingredients in cream is - glycine soja which is soybean oil, prunus amygdalus dulcis which is sweet almond oil, beeswax, shea butter, cocoa seed butter, fragrance. Temps and humidity are perfect and water is fresh. I've been watching her daily since purchase and she acts very predictable. This happened immediately after feeding. I watched her try to climb up on her basking spot and curl around and almost fell off of the area. Definitely acting poisoned and or neurologically disoriented. Not sure if it's possible to recover from this kind of situation.
      Bingo! (maybe?) Certain kinds of raw almonds* are POISONOUS! (search for yourself-!) They contain hydrogen cyanide which must be refined out. I know you said "sweet"
      almond oil, but mistakes & cheap "short-cuts" do happen...& while using for hand cream, maybe nothing happens**, but ingestion is another matter? (*bitter-wild-almonds)
      (**no guarantee though...many things CAN be absorbed thru the skin, but we are much bigger & it takes longer to cause reaction...don't think I'd use that stuff, just saying!)

      Get her some (snake-qualified) medical help please! Let them know what is suspected...they might be able to help neutralize, but waiting is not so good, IMO.

      Where was this cream made? imported? If the vet concurs, let the company know...some of these creams smell yummy...other pets (dogs?) or kids could lick their hands?

      http://www.merckvetmanual.com/toxico...nide-poisoning -for starters. Of course, finding a reference for a snake is all but impossible.

      Excerpt from another article says: " Unfortunately, no tests for rapid confirmation of cyanide poisoning exist, so treatment must be based on a presumptive diagnosis."
      Also:
      "Cyanide occurs naturally in amygdalin, a cyanogenic glucoside. Amygdalin occurs in low concentrations in the seeds and fruit pits (eg, apple seeds, cherry pits, bitter almonds, and apricot pits) of Prunus species." (quotes from http://ccn.aacnjournals.org/content/31/1/72.full )
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      10-17-2017 10:36 PM

      Default Re: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      Anyone else have any ideas? It's always possible that that one specific rodent was the only one contaminated with something (like pesticide?)...I still question whether

      enough of the hand cream could have rubbed off on the rodent handled so briefly, but from Walter's observations, the symptoms are clearly tied to that meal, poor snake.

      In a way, it bodes well (for possible recovery?) that the snake is still alive after a week...but I'd want to see (from a qualified vet) if there is some way to help neutralize this.

      I know that some members have accidentally over-exposed their snakes to PAM (mite spray) which also causes severe & sometimes fatal neurological issues, and there were

      things the vet did to help them survive. I suspect recovery is slow & who knows whether it will be "back to normal" or not?


      Walter: ***Make sure the snake stays hydrated...if she has neurological impairments, she may not drink water without your help & encouragement*, so do whatever it

      takes: *dribble or spray water over her head, or tilt her face into the water bowl AT LEAST once a day. Dehydration promotes organ failure, just when she needs additional

      hydration to help rid her body of whatever nasty substance has caused this. And please do keep us updated?
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      10-17-2017 02:01 PM

      Default Re: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      How is the snake acting today? More details the better.

      I agree with Noelle completely. Snakes do just toss lunch sometimes. I've had snakes toss for unknown reasons that went on to live a long beautiful life.

      I would say to play it safe; bring em into an experienced reptile vet. In the meantime, hike humidity a tad and keep her hydrated. For me? Personally it's hard to believe that there was enough residual hand cream on the rodent to really cause this. That rat, that meal, that seems to be the issue and hand cream was just bad timing. I could be totally wrong but like I've said.... I used the same rat breeder for YEARS who never let me down but I have had a big healthy girl just toss her food up and act odd for a few days then back to normal and lived a good life. I look at it like humans.... I can drink one beer sometimes my body does not agree and throws it back up. Nothing really wrong with the beer, nothing really wrong with me.... just bad timing? Not really sure but it happens.... I really hope she is ok. Keep a cool head

      My hopes and prayers are with you and your family.
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      10-16-2017 08:59 PM

      Default Re: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      Sorry to leave you guys hanging. The worst has happened. I have sheds lot of tears over this ordeal. Thanks for the kind words of sympathy. I still feel deep down this was caused by my fatal hand cream residue transfer. Mice from this place has been fine in past. She was acting perfect before that fatal day. Either way I hope she is in snake heaven with my first daughter. I am going to go back to the reptile show where I got her the beginning of November and will try to get another hog female and try again with my new found knowledge of the dangers of chemical trace transfer. I have never lost a snake to my mistake like this before. She was just over a year old and was a placid joy of a snake. She will be sorely missed. We are burying her in the flower garden with a memorial stepping stone. My daughter Is 8 almost 9 and is taking it as best as I can hope. Still lots of tears. In my heart I feel I know what happened so I'm confident I can be successful next time. I've raised boas from babies before so I am optimistic about out new female baby I Hope to be posting about soon. My daughter is already researching names so I guess that's a good thing. Please know I really appreciate all the kind words. Stat tuned in November as I hope to secure another hog island baby girl. Thanks again. All my respect. Walt

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      Default Re: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      I'm SO very sorry for your loss.... I was afraid that this is what your "silence" meant, & I'm still not so sure you should blame yourself at all.

      Rest in peace, little snake...you're very much missed.

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      Default Re: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      Thank you so much . Really looking forward to starting over with my eyes wide open to the possible dangers now. Rest assured I will never handle food with anything ever on my skin. Playing it real safe in the future

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      10-17-2017 02:01 PM

      Default Re: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      I'm so very sorry to have to even read that. I know all too well the pain you must be going through and it is not a pleasant one to say the very least.

      My hopes and prayers go out to you and your family. Don't beat yourself up. I've read somewhere that I can't remember that the wild survival rate of snakes is somewhere from roughly 20% to 50%. With that being said, your little girl had a much better chance than the alternative. Try and stay positive
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      Default Re: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      Thanks for the kind words. I will officially feel better once my new baby eats her first meal and I’m back in the game. Stay tuned in early November for updates. Trying to stay positive.

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      10-17-2017 04:31 PM

      Default Re: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      Because it was a sudden neurological issue, I wouldn't rule out a neurological disease. You may want to heavily bleach out the entire cage and throw out anything replaceable. You probably don't have enough time to get a new cage. I think a 4:1 water to bleach solution might do it. Wouldn't hurt to do it a couple times as you have time to let it air out.

      EDIT: This is just a "better safe than sorry" measure. Would hate for it to have been a disease and it was just unfortunate timing hiding the real issue. If it is a disease, you don't want it happening again. That would be even more heart breaking.
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      10-17-2017 10:36 PM

      Default Re: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      Quote Originally Posted by acephantom903 View Post
      Because it was a sudden neurological issue, I wouldn't rule out a neurological disease. You may want to heavily bleach out the entire cage and throw out anything replaceable. You probably don't have enough time to get a new cage. I think a 4:1 water to bleach solution might do it. Wouldn't hurt to do it a couple times as you have time to let it air out.

      EDIT: This is just a "better safe than sorry" measure. Would hate for it to have been a disease and it was just unfortunate timing hiding the real issue. If it is a disease, you don't want it happening again. That would be even more heart breaking.
      This is exactly what I've been urging him to consider via private messages...just in case it's IBD or something contagious like that. As far as I can tell, he had this snake for
      a year...but if I'm not mistaken, IBD can take that long to show up in a boa? (I know it's normally faster in ball pythons-) For all we know, maybe it's also evolving?
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      Default Re: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      Quote Originally Posted by Noelle7206 View Post
      As far as I can tell, he had this snake for
      a year...but if I'm not mistaken, IBD can take that long to show up in a boa?
      I didn't want to cause a panic without reason which is why I didn't say the boogeyman IBD. I think the incubation time for IBD is 12 to 24 months in boas and 3-6 months in ball pythons. People use ball pythons as canaries to know if IBD is in a collection and if it shows up, they separate every animal to minimize the spread.
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      Default Re: Devestated! Please advise on chances of survival....

      Quote Originally Posted by acephantom903 View Post
      I didn't want to cause a panic without reason which is why I didn't say the boogeyman IBD. I think the incubation time for IBD is 12 to 24 months in boas and 3-6 months in ball pythons. People use ball pythons as canaries to know if IBD is in a collection and if it shows up, they separate every animal to minimize the spread.
      That's roughly the information I have too...it's quite possible that the whole "hand cream" incident was just a coincidence in timing. I know BPs are the "canaries in
      the coal mine" for this dreaded disease; from the information he gave, I sadly wouldn't rule out IBD as the cause of death, & I sure wouldn't hurry to get another.
      I'd be tossing all branches & bleaching cage & any plastic hide boxes, & totally cleaning (trying to disinfect) the room & area as well, just as a precaution.
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