Follow us on...
Follow us on Twitter Follow us on Facebook Watch us on YouTube
Register
<

User Tag List

  • Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Embarrassed
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Grumpy
  • Happy
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • + Reply to Thread
    Results 1 to 12 of 12
    Like Tree17Likes
    • 1 Post By Des9699
    • 1 Post By Pandorasdad
    • 3 Post By Kung Fu Joe
    • 1 Post By Des9699
    • 1 Post By Des9699
    • 3 Post By zamora
    • 2 Post By Des9699
    • 2 Post By acephantom903
    • 2 Post By Kung Fu Joe
    • 1 Post By acephantom903

    Thread: What size Vivarium?

    1. #1
      Snake Keeper
      This user has not set their status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       

      Reputation

      Join Date
      Jan 2016
      Location
      London UK
      Posts
      79
      User Info Achievements / Awards Thanks / Tagging Info vBActivity Stats
      Last Visited
      09-12-2017 08:30 AM

      Default What size Vivarium?

      I have a baby Boa, he's 6-7months and about 23" right now.
      I have been looking into vivs for when he is full grown.
      I have narrowed it down to two. The first is 48"L x 24"W x 24"H, the second is 48"L x 24"W x 36"H.

      He was sold to me as a Common Boa suspected dwarf his parents are 4 & 4-1/2 foot. So the 48"L should be fine if he does grow large I have space for a 60" or maybe 72"L so it wouldnt be a problem.

      What is the better option the 24" or the 36"H, will he be climbing much as an adult or will it just be wasted space in the viv?



      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      acephantom903 likes this.

    2. #2
      Snake Lover
      is Chillin' with princess butter.
       
      I am:
      Geeky
       

      ReputationReputationReputation

      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Location
      Palm Beach County, FL
      Posts
      920
      Images
      2
      User Info Achievements / Awards Thanks / Tagging Info vBActivity Stats
      Last Visited
      03-23-2018 10:27 PM

      Default Re: What size Vivarium?

      I'd say if you can dedicate the space, go as big as you can. The height will not be wasted because you can put in larger branches and/or a platform which adults do like platforms. The problem with going taller is it is harder to heat which it is really up to you to figure out how to heat a taller space.

      Never trust someone saying it is a dwarf boa unless they have lineage papers. Some breeders will occasionally say they are dwarfs to make a sale easier. 48" sounds less intimidating than a potential (uncommon but not unheard of) 96" for a male. Dwarf boas typically need as much space as their full sized cousins.

      If you wanted to be safe, you could go with the 72". 48" is a minimum for a Colombian BCI which average 6-7' and if they grow any larger they need a bigger cage. 36"H would be very easy to reach into to clean. I have a 12"H cage currently and it is difficult to reach all the way into the back corners even with the cage 48" off the ground.

    3. #3
      RTB Staff / Global Moderator
      is BASEBALL!
       
      I am:
      Cool
       

      ReputationReputation
      ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
      Pandorasdad's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2008
      Location
      Oakdale, CA
      Posts
      9,434
      Images
      10
      User Info Achievements / Awards Thanks / Tagging Info vBActivity Stats
      Last Visited
      07-27-2017 09:57 PM

      Default Re: What size Vivarium?

      In reality, a small male boa can live in a relatively small enclosure if you needed him to. I keep my boas in a 4x2x2. Even my 7 foot+ female. As long as you give them regular exercise, that would be fine. If you're going to go larger, I'd go taller. Boas are natural climbers.
      acephantom903 likes this.


      -Sean in NoCal
      “Americanism means the virtues of courage, honor, justice, truth, sincerity, and hardihood – the virtues that made America.”
      -Teddy Roosevelt.

    4. #4
      Snake Lover
      This user has not set their status.
       
      I am:
      Cool
       

      ReputationReputationReputationReputation

      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Location
      A frozen tundra from the far beyond
      Posts
      658
      Images
      23
      User Info Achievements / Awards Thanks / Tagging Info vBActivity Stats
      Last Visited
      03-10-2019 11:39 AM

      Default Re: What size Vivarium?

      Go big... I'll have to quote myself here... think about thermoregulation.

      I have heard many statements from friends that weren't "snake people" expressing that they considered the standard boa enclosure to be to small for the inhabitant. Whether sharing online photographs, or discussing/displaying my own animals it has certainly been a reoccurring statement. Recently a friend had her six and eight year old over, and the kids mentioned right away "She needs a bigger cage" (referring to my nine foot boa, in an 8x2). Are they correct? Have we boa keepers as a community become so accustomed to maintaining our animals in minimally spaced enclosures that we need to be enlightened by children with no knowledge of reptile keeping?

      After nearly thirty consecutive years of keeping boids, it appears that the minimal recommended enclosure size for keeping boas has decreased over the years. The commonly used standard today is LxW>SNAKE. When I first got involved in keeping boas in the 1980's the minimal standard was essentially L+W>SNAKE. One publicized example of such is this quote from Philippe de Vosjoli (reference The General Care and Maintenance of Red-Tailed Boas, page 24, 1990) which reads in part "By two years an enclosure at least 48 inches long and 24 inches wide will be required and preferably an enclosure 60-84 inches long (the size enclosure a large female will eventually require)." In summary, he was recommending a 7x2 for a large female.

      If that adds relevance to the point, it would only be appropriate to examine the reasons for a decrease in the minimal recommended cage size.

      One reason certainly could be an increase in the size of personal reptile collections from the 1980's to today. Without any factual evidence or reputable studies, I can only theorize that personal collections are larger today, yet it could be difficult to argue otherwise.

      In the late 1980's there simply weren't as many reptiles available to collect. Morphs were essentially non-existent or too expensive for the general public. If you had a ball, a boa, and a burm you essentially had them all (as far as boids were concerned)... Retics had an unsavory reputation back then, and were rarely available. Less was known about breeding, so personal herp keepers were likely less willing to even attempt to breed. At that time, many available animals were often wild caught, or farm bred. Having a smaller collection seems to correlate with providing larger enclosures.

      The stackable cages available today offer the availability to keep a larger collection of animals, and the hundreds of available colors and morphs keep us all interested, and buying.

      Cost is always a factor in enclosure size, and as the norm has switched from custom built enclosures to commercially constructed ones (due to the former lack of availability), that variable appears to hold even more relevance. Those that have done the math, and done the builds will likely concur that building a 4x2 (as opposed to buying a commercially built enclosure) isn't really cost effective... But due to the high cost of shipping cages larger than four feet in length, the tables are reversed when considering an 8x2. Thus, as fewer of us build, larger cages become increasingly expensive.

      So what if we DO have larger collections? And who cares if our cages are a little smaller if our snakes are healthy, and breeding? Let me share some personal observations of the behavior of my own animals.

      I had noticed that my larger boa was consistently coiled tightly on the cool side of her 5x2 enclosure. She has always been a "cool side snake", but she never would coil when out of her enclosure.... Even if she decided to take a nap.

      When I upgraded my larger boa's enclosure from a 5x2 to an 8x2 I noticed that she no longer remained coiled tightly, yet was consistently stretched out on the cool side. I had used the same model RHP as in her prior cage, so essentially my basking spot was the same as her old cage, but now there was more square footage of cool side floor space in the new enclosure. She was clearly coiled in the 5x2 attempting to thermo regulate, and was constantly coiled due to a lack of available cool side floor space. In short, the 5x2 was too small for the eight foot boa to comfortably thermo regulate.

      There is a direct correlation with success of keeping and especially breeding boas and the ability to replicate their natural climate and environment. Are we really doing this to best of our ability using minimal sized enclosures?

      Consider the common 4x2 plastic, front opening boa enclosure with a cool side surface floor temp of 78 and a hot spot of 92 (the heating source would most commonly be a RHP or UTH). Lets say for argument sake that if you ran your temp across the bottom of the cage you would get a reading of 78 up to four inches from one end, and hit the center of the hot spot at 92 eight inches from the opposite side of the enclosure. That give you a fluctuation in surface temp of 14 degrees over a space of 36 inches. That equates to more than a full degree temperature change every three inches. Now imagine a three foot boa in that same enclosure (which would be fairly spacious accommodations by most standards). That three foot snake would be experiencing 92 degree surface temperatures at it's head, and 78 degree surface temperatures at it's tail when full stretched out across the length of the enclosure. Even if coiled in a ball (assuming the three foot snake has a nine inch diameter while coiled) the snake would be experiencing more than a three degree surface temperature change from one side of it's coiled body to the opposite side. Now imagine an eight foot boa in that same enclosure. Assuming the eight foot boa has a coiled up diameter of 21 inches the snake would be experiencing more than a seven degree surface temperature change from one side of it's coiled body to the opposite side. Now imagine the snake stretched out a little experiencing up to 14 degree fluctuations over it's body. That temperature variation for the eight foot snake (in a 4x2) holds true for most size animals using the LxW=SNAKE equation. It certainly seems less than ideal for an animal that is cold blooded, and it seems to poorly represent temperatures that may be encountered in the wild. Sure surface temps outside are not consistent, but the jungle floor doesn't constantly vary 14 degrees every 36 inches. This scenario gets even more exaggerated if using a glass enclosure with a heat lamp or CHE as the temp changes would be in both the surface and ambient temperatures.

      Captive kept boas generally have a higher percentage of body fat than their wild cousins. This is likely due to a variable of factors. Exceptionally kept animals are often well fed, have veterinary care, expend little energy searching for food or a mate, encounter no predators or parasites, experience no drastic temperature changes and generally have less overall stress. All that being said, most rarely (if ever) get the chance to climb or swim and have almost no opportunity to exercise in enclosures that are most often shorter than the length of the snake.

      Often the claim is made that snakes get stressed out if the enclosure is too large. There may be some truth to snakes being stressed out by large open spaces. Have you ever seen a wild snake in the middle of a parking lot? Doubt it... One word, predators. However, the jungle clearly has no walls. I currently keep a 2015 boa in a 5X2, and the snake is thriving, demonstrating no signs of stress whatsoever. Multiple hides and cover are provided throughout the enclosure to mimic the jungle floor and provide a sense of security. One can only ponder if the aforementioned claim is made for the benefit of the animal, or the convenience of it's keeper.

      When I was a child, I can remember the norm in my town/neighborhood for dogs owners was to chain them to a tree with a dog house and leave them outside year round. If you walk through that same neighborhood today, you will not see that as the norm has since evolved to a more ethical treatment of mans best friend. If you left your dog penned up too long it would vocalize it's displeasure, as would your cat. Snakes do not have that ability, but I have never owned a snake that didn't attempt escape when being reintroduced to it's enclosure. Maybe we collectively need to evaluate and recreate the norms and caging standards for our slithering cohorts.

      Think about it.

    5. #5
      Snake Keeper
      This user has not set their status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       

      Reputation

      Join Date
      Jan 2016
      Location
      London UK
      Posts
      79
      User Info Achievements / Awards Thanks / Tagging Info vBActivity Stats
      Last Visited
      09-12-2017 08:30 AM

      Default Re: What size Vivarium?

      Thanks for the replies.

      He was sold as a suspected dwarf not as a guaranteed dwarf. He will be whatever size he is going to be, all I can do is try my best to give him the best life possible.

      I will have to have more of a look about to see what other sizes of viv I can get hold of. I dont fancy trying to make my own.

      If I was to buy the large viv now and put him in it now, would he be ok or is it best to go up in viv sizes as he grows?

      Lots of websites and care sheets etc all have conflicting views on this.


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      acephantom903 likes this.

    6. #6
      Snake Keeper
      This user has not set their status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       

      Reputation

      Join Date
      Jan 2016
      Location
      London UK
      Posts
      79
      User Info Achievements / Awards Thanks / Tagging Info vBActivity Stats
      Last Visited
      09-12-2017 08:30 AM

      Default Re: What size Vivarium?



      This is Maurice


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      acephantom903 likes this.

    7. #7
      RTB Staff / Global Moderator
      is impatient
       
      I am:
      Cool
       

      Reputation
      ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
      zamora's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 2008
      Location
      South Mississippi
      Posts
      9,520
      User Info Achievements / Awards Thanks / Tagging Info vBActivity Stats
      Last Visited
      11-15-2017 08:38 PM

      Default Re: What size Vivarium?

      Quote Originally Posted by Des9699 View Post
      If I was to buy the large viv now and put him in it now, would he be ok or is it best to go up in viv sizes as he grows?
      If you provide enough hides and spaces where he can feel secure then go with the larger one. As long as the temps and humidity are adequate, he should be fine in the large enclosure.

      @Kung Fu Joe very interesting writeup, thanks!
      http://berkeleyknebel.wix.com/mississippimorphs

      Photo credit:Eddie Ard .....Banner Credit:Big PaPa Ernest

    8. #8
      Snake Keeper
      This user has not set their status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       

      Reputation

      Join Date
      Jan 2016
      Location
      London UK
      Posts
      79
      User Info Achievements / Awards Thanks / Tagging Info vBActivity Stats
      Last Visited
      09-12-2017 08:30 AM

      Default Re: What size Vivarium?

      A few more pics





      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      Kung Fu Joe and acephantom903 like this.

    9. #9
      Snake Lover
      is Chillin' with princess butter.
       
      I am:
      Geeky
       

      ReputationReputationReputation

      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Location
      Palm Beach County, FL
      Posts
      920
      Images
      2
      User Info Achievements / Awards Thanks / Tagging Info vBActivity Stats
      Last Visited
      03-23-2018 10:27 PM

      Default Re: What size Vivarium?

      Depending on how big of a cage you get, a few hides and objects he can hide behind should be fine. I have 2 hides (warm side and cool side), 3 paper towel rolls in different places, a climbing branch, a PVC ladder, and a PVC perch, and 2 water bowls. He has plenty of stuff to hide behind if he doesn't want to be seen but also lots of room to explore if he feels adventurous and decides to climb when my room's light is on.
      Kung Fu Joe and Des9699 like this.

    10. #10
      Snake Lover
      This user has not set their status.
       
      I am:
      Cool
       

      ReputationReputationReputationReputation

      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Location
      A frozen tundra from the far beyond
      Posts
      658
      Images
      23
      User Info Achievements / Awards Thanks / Tagging Info vBActivity Stats
      Last Visited
      03-10-2019 11:39 AM

      Default Re: What size Vivarium?

      Quote Originally Posted by acephantom903 View Post
      Depending on how big of a cage you get, a few hides and objects he can hide behind should be fine. I have 2 hides (warm side and cool side), 3 paper towel rolls in different places, a climbing branch, a PVC ladder, and a PVC perch, and 2 water bowls. He has plenty of stuff to hide behind if he doesn't want to be seen but also lots of room to explore if he feels adventurous and decides to climb when my room's light is on.
      As stated above... The jungle has no walls. Boas survived, ate and reproduced since nearly prehistoric times (practically unevolved) without the security of living in a small plastic box. IMO if you do a decent job of replicating the jungle in your enclosure (providing adequate cover, temps and humidity), it can never be too big.
      acephantom903 and Des9699 like this.

    11. #11
      Snake Keeper
      This user has not set their status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       

      Reputation

      Join Date
      Jan 2016
      Location
      London UK
      Posts
      79
      User Info Achievements / Awards Thanks / Tagging Info vBActivity Stats
      Last Visited
      09-12-2017 08:30 AM

      Default Re: What size Vivarium?

      I have found a viv that is 36" high, someone mentioned that providing a hot spot may be an issue.
      I will be using a ceramic heater, I emailed the manufacturers of the model I have been looking at and they also said the basking spot may be an issue with the extra height and to provide a raised spot for the basking spot.
      Was just wondering what would be the best way to provide the raised spot? Have any of you done this in your own vivariums?


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    12. #12
      Snake Lover
      is Chillin' with princess butter.
       
      I am:
      Geeky
       

      ReputationReputationReputation

      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Location
      Palm Beach County, FL
      Posts
      920
      Images
      2
      User Info Achievements / Awards Thanks / Tagging Info vBActivity Stats
      Last Visited
      03-23-2018 10:27 PM

      Default Re: What size Vivarium?

      You can make platforms pretty easily. Ideally a platform will be bigger than a coiled adult, sealed so humidity and urine/urates and poo cannot damage it, have texture so the snake has grip, and removable so it is easier to clean it and the cage. I guess the simplest thing would be getting a safe wood board which would be 28"x23"x3/4" (so it will fit in the cage) and 4 wooden dowels 2" diameter and 12" long, using a good wood sealant, letting it sit out for 2 weeks, then screw/nail the legs on like a table.

      Does anyone else have and ideas?
      Des9699 likes this.

     

     

    Similar Threads

    1. [Thermostats] Anyone use Vivarium Electronics Ve-100?
      By BIKERinBLACK77 in forum Environment
      Replies: 3
      Last Post: 11-05-2012, 10:35 PM
    2. My new Vivarium is allmost done.
      By djdobro in forum Caging
      Replies: 11
      Last Post: 08-17-2011, 11:32 PM
    3. vivarium question
      By scoobaman17 in forum Boa Care
      Replies: 2
      Last Post: 04-13-2008, 06:16 PM
    4. VIVARIUM PIX
      By EcuaTrucho in forum RTB Chit Chat
      Replies: 11
      Last Post: 07-25-2004, 02:01 PM

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts

    WE STRONGLY SUPPORT


    usark_square

      Fauna Top Sites Reptile Related Top Sites Strictly Reptiles