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  • zenzinia T+ blond???

    so i am sure that those of you who look at many boa fourms have seen the debate about the T+ blonds that zenzinia has produced. i was wondering what everyone here thought about them. to me they don't look like T+ babies and the picture of the toung that is "see through" looks sceptical at best. again this is all my oppinion. please chime in with your oppinions.

    in case you have not seen the pictures of the "PROVEN T+" babies, they are on king snakes boa fourm. i have no clue how to cut and past them here.

  • #2
    Re: zenzinia T+ blond???

    I think there are multiple debates wrapped up in this package. First, are zenzia's blonde T+'s the same type of mutation that is apparent in VPI's, prodigy's, etc? And second, are any of those T+'s at all? VPI doesnt use the term T+ any longer with theirs because, scientificly speaking, they are not certain that that is what they are. I personally agree with their conservative approach - I think we should be catious about throwing around theoretical labels as fact. Merely for the sake of the credibility of our hobby. We dont even know if Kahl / Sharp albinos are T plus or minus mutations. As Chris Cilbert pointed out, in rat snakes a dopa test was done on two albino strains that were incompatible but produced identical phenotypes (looks), it was found that one was t+ and the other was t- (thus answering the question as to why they are incompatable). Are sharps / kahl albinos in a similiar scenario? Hopefully one day soon we'll find out.

    Here's what Tracy Barker said in a thread over at reptileinsider:

    is all a matter of speculation. The particular snakes we have we have named VPI caramel albino boas. These snakes have red eyes that you can shine a light through the pupil. They come from two wild caught Colombian boas that produced a litter of boas with two caramel albinos and normal offspring, that multiple animals through breeding have been determined to be 100% het for caramel albino. This line of boas has repeatedly produced caramel albinos as well as another look, we call "pink panthers." The Pink Panther is a dominant as far as we can determine, and is not linked to the caramel albino gene.

    Each boa that is out there comes from a lineage of snakes. We look at all snakes on a case by case basis and if it is bred to our lineage and produces caramel albinos then we call it a caramel albino. We have so far found a single male that we got as a wc baby 5 years ago that is compatible with this lineage. All other VPI caramel albinos have only been produced from pairing animals directly descended from the original wildcaught pair. We have one female from the wild that we got as a baby and we hope to breed her this year.

    We do not use the term t+ to identify the VPI lineage of snakes anymore, because the biology on the skin has never been done. We named it caramel albino because of the color of the snake and the red eyes, and we call it a VPI caramel albino to indicate that it is a proven look from a distinct lineage, that when you take animals from the lineage and breed them they will produce VPI caramel albinos.

    We get photos all the time of snakes from people who want to know if their snake is a "t+" and honestly we can't answer that question. I will say of all the photos I have received in the last 6 plus years since we produced the first babies, sssscales (photo above) is the first snake other than the two wc animals we have aquired that looked like a dead ringer for our lineage. It would be cool after that project gets off the ground to take one of the animals and breed it to one of ours.

    Compatibility? We don't know and we just need to start the projects and see where they lead us. The different looks of all of these boas are amazing and I know that I have worked on this one line of snakes since I got them as babies in 1997!! That is 10 years of work on this project!!

    Believe it or not not only are there two colors in this lineage caramel and pink panther-I have had two patterns arise-a really nice thin connected one, which I hope to get more of soon, and the reverse stripe one, which I have repeated this year!
    A quote from Chris Cilbert in that same thread:

    The testing of the skin that Tracy mentioned is crucial to labeling any of the "Albinos" as either truly being Albino and T+ or T-. Based on the definitions I am aware of an Albino animal must have red pupils.

    Caden mentioned blue eyes, those are not the color of the pupil but the iris. Blue, and gray are usually colors seen in eyes of Leucistic animals.

    The only dopa test done in snakes to determine if the Albino was T+ or T- was in rat snakes. Both looked identical in phenotype but didn't produce albinos when bred together, the test was done and one was T+.
    This could very well explain why Sharp and Kahl are not compatible.

    For the person you asked if Paradigms have red pupils, they do. The Carmel/Boawoman Hypo do not.

    I've spoken to a few people regarding getting tests done with the different "Albino" boa morphs, including the Boawoman Hypo because of the relation to the Paradigm and some link to Sharp.
    I've been able to secure donors of blood samples for all of them and will be looking more into lab studies for this as I am able to.

    I should have more time next year as I am changeing majors and should be able to get a little further. I also spoke with another hobbyiest that also has the resources to conduct the test at his school.
    I hope the answers are available by 2010, if not sooner.
    A quote from Paul Hollander (I think, just says PaulH) in that same thread:

    Can a boa be T+ and not have pink pupils? I have my opinions. Does anyone else?

    My opinion is yes, a boa be T+ and not have pink pupils. Evidence to support my opinion comes from the Siamese cat, in part. The Siamese cat is lighter in color than a normal cat but does not have pink eyes. The mutant gene (himalayan) is an allele of albino, the tyrosinase negative mutant gene in cats. The Siamese cat is lighter than a normal cat because the himalayan mutant gene does not produce a fully functional tyrosinase enzyme. But the mutant tyrosinase can produce some melanin so a Siamese cat is not white with pink eyes. There are similar mutant alleles of the mouse's tyrosinase-negative mutant gene.

    "T-positive albino" is a grab bag of unrelated mutants. I could be persuaded that nearly anything but a black boa could be in there. For that matter, both the Kahl and Sharp albinos could be be classed as possible Tyrosinase-postives until someone actually does a dopa test on them. And then the odds are that no more than one would be a T-negative albino.
    The thread: http://www.reptileinsider.com/upload...ghlight=barker

    As to whether or not zenzia's are the same mutation - I dont know. From what I can tell they appear to be very similiar to the early and lesser VPI Caramel Albinos. But I havent really looked too deep into the issue.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: zenzinia T+ blond???

      I think the animals that Gabor and Zenzinia are the same as any other line of animals that have been labled as T+ albinos so far. they have not been refined as of yet, but they definately have proven it to be Genetic and not some fluke. I really dont know why everyone is making such a big deal about them claiming them to be T+ albinos, they DEFINATELY APPEAR to be the same as other KNOWN pre-existing T+ labled animals. I think most of the folks having a hard time believeing them not to be albinos have not seen enough t+ albinos to really have an educated opinion one way or the other.

      Just my 2 cents, Yes they are what they claim to be in my opinion.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: zenzinia T+ blond???

        there were a couple reasons why i posted responses on kingsnake:
        1. Michael was asking how those babies posted were called t+ when they don't look like t+. Zenzinia on the other hand was having a hard time understanding why Michael had a hard time believing that they were t+. I sympathized with Michael in that, in those pictures posted, they didn't look like the normal t+ you see people posting, especially as babies, but i never said they were not t+. All i was saying was post some comparison shots with some normals and it would be a lot easier for people to distinguish the two.
        2. I posted pictures of VPI lines caramel albino's (which were the original albino's accepted as t positive) to show how drastic the appearance was and why people do not question those. His response was that not all VPI caramel albinos look like that, but my point was that even though they all dont look exactly like that or even if they darken, they are very easy to distinguish from normal boas. The Blond albinos posted in that thread were not very distinct in appearance in the pictures he posted, so I just suggested he post some comparison shots.
        3. The statements of what causes red eye and red eye reduction in cameras didn't make sense so i added to those facts.
        4. No matter how much he talked about genetics or characteristics of t positive, none of that really holds ground until tests are done, so the only way to prove anything to anyone is really just to post pictures.
        Like I mentioned before, i wasn't there to discredit that line or prove that they could not be t positive. It's just in that thread, the babies did not look very much like any of the claimed t positives out there. Gabor posted the type of picture I was trying to get out of Zenzinia, and after that all was well.

        I have seen other pictures of the line long ago and I have always agreed that they looked t+ (compared to other claimed t+ lines), but everything I was talking about was only regarding that thread and those pictures posted.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: zenzinia T+ blond???

          To me, they look very similiar to the lesser "T+'s" from VPI's line. The reason I have not gotten into that line in particular is because so many individuals look very normalish, and I couldn't justify the expense, at least not until they were more refined (like many seem to be now). What you are likely seeing with the really obvious ones from Tracy's line is the refinement that has taken place, or at worst standout individuals from early on - such refinement has not taken place in zenzia's line, therfore we cannot expect them to look quite to that level.

          Clay's in particular are already from a killer pastel line, vast refinement was unknowingly done prior to the discovery of the mutation.

          I think people are most likely confused because they are comparing refined "T+" lines to unrefined ones. And the point also stands that, who knows which, if any, are even T+ in the first place. I think labels like "Prodigy", "Blonde Albino", "Caramel albino" are completely legit/adequite at this point. So I dont really see what the need for all the controversy. I dont think they (zenzia, gabor) are necessarily saying that they are for sure T+'s, just that they have just as much of a chance of being one as the already established and non-controversial potential T+ lines. And again - I dont see anything wrong with that.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: zenzinia T+ blond???

            Check out these pictures from another fellow over on that side of the pond(I think) that produced litters in 05 and 06.

            http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1335347,1336754

            A het next to a visual:



            A neonate het next to a neonate visual:

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: zenzinia T+ blond???

              IMHO...whatever any of these snakes are, whether they are T+ Albinos or not, compatible or not, from the VPI to the Paradigm to the Prodigy to the Zenzinia to any other that pops up. All of them IMO are very very nice Boas! I for one can't wait to see what the breeders and Boa community does with each project and where they take them next.
              We should all just enjoy the ride and produce more nice Boas.....

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: zenzinia T+ blond???

                I had no idea that they had to be refined, that does make some sense though. the pictures look so much like nice pink normal boas, then again, there was nothing to compair them to. that toung shot still seems a little fixed up. they are nice, but you can see how people would think that they are off when you have the paradigme and prodigy and carmel lines that look so awesome as babies.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: zenzinia T+ blond???

                  So much easier to tell with pics, I like that caramel color...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: zenzinia T+ blond???

                    Originally posted by reagorfu
                    I had no idea that they had to be refined, that does make some sense though. the pictures look so much like nice pink normal boas, then again, there was nothing to compair them to. that toung shot still seems a little fixed up. they are nice, but you can see how people would think that they are off when you have the paradigme and prodigy and carmel lines that look so awesome as babies.
                    The tongue shot actually is a true representation of a very interesting trait of T+ albinos.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: zenzinia T+ blond???

                      Originally posted by ssscales
                      IMHO...whatever any of these snakes are, whether they are T+ Albinos or not, compatible or not, from the VPI to the Paradigm to the Prodigy to the Zenzinia to any other that pops up. All of them IMO are very very nice Boas! I for one can't wait to see what the breeders and Boa community does with each project and where they take them next.
                      We should all just enjoy the ride and produce more nice Boas.....
                      Excellent point. The primary focus is "When I mix this with that, will it look cool?". Understanding the technical science behind it is nice and all, but its a secondary issue. If its genetic (single gene or polygenic), looks good, and will be useful to mix with other genetic animals - I want one!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: zenzinia T+ blond???

                        Originally posted by LocoLizard
                        The tongue shot actually is a true representation of a very interesting trait of T+ albinos.
                        it may be real, but it looks like a little photo shop fun was added to me.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: zenzinia T+ blond???

                          Originally posted by reagorfu
                          it may be real, but it looks like a little photo shop fun was added to me.
                          Why do you say that? its almost as if you want to discredit his animals by picking apart the picture when in reality the picture is not doctored and is a true reperesentation of what the tongue actually looks like.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: zenzinia T+ blond???

                            ok, whats T+

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: zenzinia T+ blond???

                              Originally posted by gambeezie
                              ok, whats T+
                              It can get very technical. I'm certainly not qualified to fully explain it but: think of a T+ albino as an albino that can, to some degree, produce melanin. Melanin is what causes the formation of dark pigment (degrees of black).

                              Comment

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