I have a question???

[J.J.]

I have a question about hets. How does one know that an animal is 100% het for Albino unless you breed that animal to confirm it. I see peaple all the time offering a yearling 100% het with paperwork for about the same price as normal BCI. If it was realy 100% het wouldn't they try and sell it for a little more maybe like $300 less than an albino.

Maybe I haven't read enouph, I know I don't know very much about morphs but I'm lerning cwm15.gif

[dumeril]

Re:I have a question???

typically 100% hets go for $300 for females and $200 for males. I usually look around at kingsnake.com in the classifieds and at fuanaclassifieds.com for prices before I buy or sell anything to get an idea what things usually go for.

[sclark]

Re:I have a question???

Hi Goob,

I will be honest. I am still learning some advanced things on morphs, etc.. I haven't found anyway to visually tell if it is really a 100%. Guess it really hindges on the seller if he knows what he is doing and if he is honest. I do know some people that got taken by 100% hets for albino balls. It took 2 years to find out he just had a normal ball.

I agree with Dumeril that they normally sell for more. it seems the market for snakes right now are not so great. I have seen some snakes sold for alot less then they were worth.

Hope that helped.
Steve

[ClayEnglish]

Re:I have a question???

Well that is the problem in a nutshell. Unless you know the breeder well, and are confident in his reputation, I would not buy a 100% het from anyone..

The selling of Hets/possible hets are the #1 scam in the reptile business. The problem with hets is, as you say Goob, you have to breed them to prove them.

I purchased my 100% hets directly from Pete Kahl. It was him, Jeff Ronne, or noone as far as I was concerned.. (This is not to say that there are not other reputable breeders of albinos, just my personal opinion)

Now that I have said all this, let me follow that up with this..

Jeff Ronne has proven that he CAN Identify the true hets out of a group of possible hets. He has found an identity mark (he has guarded with his life) and from a group of many possible hets, he pulled 8 pairs he had identified as 100% hets based on this "trait". 7 of these pairs produced albinos.. (by the way the other 8 pairings that he classified as not het had all normal babies)

This is too much proof to be a coincedence in my opinion.. You can read more on Jeff's site...

Also Jeff sold this "trait" to one individual (named on Jeff's site) for 3000.00 dollars and that guy never asked for his money back..

I feel like Ripley... "Believe it or Not" ;D

[dumeril]

Re:I have a question???

In response to clay.. I know someone that has met Jeff and despite what is said there is no way to tell a het by looking.. my niece has brown eyes but when she is older she may have a kid that has blue eyes because her dad has blue eyes... but by looking at her you can't tell her kid may have blue eyes... it is pretty much the same thing with hets... there are no physical traits that prove a snake has the genes in the blood for albino or any other morph...


also the person has seen Jeff at shows and people have gone up to him with 4 snakes and asked him which if any are het for albinos and Jeff doesn't answer he changes the subject or walks away...

[ClayEnglish]

Re:I have a question???

Well Jeff has proven his trait. As well as one other individual.

Also Jeff has only been to one show and that was the Daytona show last year, where he only took his new Boaphile plastics enclosures to showcase them. He did not take a single boa.

Also he will not share this trait with absolute strangers, would you. Heck he has not even remotely shared it with me, and I have known Jeff for 5 years.

Also another point. I have sold a lot of boas for Jeff. I recently sold boas that were from several Het for Pastel Albino to Het for Albino breedings. Jeff sent me all the boas that in his opinion were NOT het. He kept all the boas that were HET in his opinion.

I sold all the boas as normals. Even though in theory they were pos hets.

Only time will tell again. Possible Jeff will stop by as well.

But as for the rest of us.. Yes you are correct. We cannot tell simply by looking at them.

But saying

my niece has brown eyes but when she is older she may have a kid that has blue eyes because her dad has blue eyes... but by looking at her you can't tell her kid may have blue eyes... it is pretty much the same thing with hets

does not cover all your basis. See blue eyes, like albinoism, is a recessive gene. But is that the only gene that is passed on. Certainly not.

Do families also pass on genetics like the shape and look of the eyes. SURE. People look like their parents, generally the mother or the father, but you can definately see other genetics that are not "hidden" or recessive.

So by leading people to believe that Jeff sees the Ablino trait, is misleading. Jeff has recognized ANOTHER genetic trait that he has only seen in 100% hets. Especially since all "original" strain albinos came from one bloodline albino.

That's my 2 cents

[tatdaddy]

Re:I have a question???

Dumeril think about it like this. If you were Mr.Ronne and you have proven that you can pick out het's from normal's and everyone in the reptile world know's this. Everyone first question when they met you would be HOW? Now this would get a little bit bothersome if you ask me.

As far as physical traits go. You say that there are none that proves the traite is in the blood to be passed on to the offspring.
Well why is that most breeders look at the physical traits of the boas to determian what type of traits they
want the offspring to have? Just my two cents

TAT 8)

[The_Boaphile]

Re:I have a question???

I really don’t have time for this but here goes.

#1 Whoever said that they brought me 4 Boas at a show and asked me to determine using my theory AND said that I tried to change the subject, OR walked away. Which was it? Did I try to change the subject or did I walk away? I have news for you. I know you are just relaying something that someone told you but guess what? That never happened. I would remember it if it did. It is possible that someone brought me something, started to ask his question and we were interrupted and he didn’t complete it but the tale as you told it here has never happened to me at a show. It is also possible that someone came to me with animals that were all purchased as possible hets and that I didn’t see a het in the bunch and they didn’t like my answer. In fact I had two friends who dragged me across the show to look over Boas for them that I was happy to do to answer whether or not I thought some particular animals were hets. I confirmed it and they both bought a number of them. That is a fact. I would not do this for just anyone as I am really busy at shows and don’t have time to have everyone at the show who wants to buy hets have me check it out for them.

#2 I am under absolutely no obligation to answer such a question for anyone at a show. If I wasn’t really busy and someone came by with an animal or two I could very well answer and help the person out but I am not under any obligation to do so for anyone. Especially someone who goes spends their money with someone else and then brings it over to me to answer questions about it. Do you buy a Ford at the Ford dealer and the go to the Cadillac dealer to have him answer questions or service it for free? Of course not. So why would anyone be so presumptuous to expect me to do that. I would as I stated if I wasn’t too busy but I would not be under any obligation to do so.

#3 The non-believer who so quickly discounted the numbers Clay recited regarding my het confirmation success in 16 different breedings in one year is obviously assuming I lied or am the luckiest person to have ever lived. You see to breed 16 pairs of 66% possible hets and be able to successfully predict 15 of those 16 breedings is either as I said a lie or I am onto something. Given one pair of 66% possible hets breeding you have a 44% chance that that individual pair will produce Albinos due to both being hets. But to be correct in 15 or 16 breedings is off the chart. Unless of course I am lying.

#4 Someday somebody else is going to figure this out as well. That or someday I will tell people. Right now I will not as there are all too many who would use this information to deceitfully sell possible hets as known hets. I have known of my little theory for over four years. Despite this I have never sold any possible hets as anything but just that. Possible hets. The only animals that I have ever sold as 100% hets are those that were fathered by an Albino male. No others. I have been unfortunate in the het producing category every year until this one. I believe I have produced fewer than a total or 30 hets in eight years of producing Albinos. That is pretty pathetic. This year is another story though. We have produced more 100% hets this year than in all 8 years before put together.

Sorry this next little bit is going to sound like I am bragging but here goes anyhow. I was the first one years ago to tell how I bred my Boas and was scoffed at at the time. Because what I wrote was completely against the conventional wisdom, I was accused of making the whole thing up. Oh well. Now years later after hundreds of other breeders have helped to prove me and my methods correct, the Boa world knows I didn’t make it all up. They know it works and most follow my recipe with good success. I received no financial gain by revealing what I had concluded. In fact since many many more people have bred their Boas as a direct result of what I wrote you could make the argument that it cost me a lot of money in the form of other peoples breeding success. Also a number of years ago I was the first to go out on a limb and state that the normal appearing babies from Hypo breedings were normal and not the hets they were being sold as, I came under some fire at that time as well. In fact the largest breeder of Hypos at the time called me accused me of thinking I was, “The Boa God” and threatened to come up here and beat me up. He told me how big he was and what he was going to do to me. Oh well. I was correct on that one as well. In fact this same breeder who threatened me, claimed a lie in an article he wrote recently that at that time he knew that breeding a normal to a normal from these Hypo breedings would produce all normal offspring. This despite the fact that he was still selling normals AS HETS for Hypo up until after that breeding proved I was correct. Again I had nothing to gain in telling what I thought the truth was. This little theory on my having observed something is the same in my head. I had nothing to gain in saying it. In fact once again here am basically being accused of treating someone rudly and or being a liar making the whole thing up. That’s OK. I am a big boy. I have weathered the little storm before and the really big guy never did come up here and beat me up.

So anyhow, that’s it I guess. To summarize: In real life it makes no difference to anyone’s life. Nobody is buying theorized hets from anyone anywhere. Such would not be the case I guarantee it, if I were to let the cat out of the bag. I either am onto something with my little theory or I am not. I am telling the truth or I made the whole thing up. You will have to decide which and as Clay has said, “believe it or not”.

Thank you,

Jeff Ronne
The Boaphile

[dumeril]

Re:I have a question???

So by saying that Jeff sees the Ablino trait, is misleading. Jeff has recognized ANOTHER genetic trait that he has only seen in 100% hets. Especially since all "original" strain albinos came from one bloodline albino.

I didn't say he sees the ablino trait... I said you can not see physical traits that prove anything about snakes having certain genes that make them hets for albino or any other morph..

[The_Boaphile]

Re:I have a question???

You said "Dumeril" the following:

"I said you can not see physical traits that prove anything about snakes having certain genes that make them hets for albino or any other morph.. "

I say the following:

"I have seen three other things that are more prevalent in hets than non-hets and I see one particular characteristic that IS present in hets and not non-hets."

Then we disagree and by conclusion if I am wrong and your statement is correct, I must have made up the statistics about breeding possible hets together because it would be mathematically impossible to have had the results I have had if as you say and I quote, ".. you can not see physical traits that prove anything about snakes having certain genes that make them hets for albino or any other morph.. ".

I hope I don’t sound like I am fighting because I am not. Nor am I mad or anything. I am just trying to explain something a little more clearly regarding this topic which had come up here at the Dr. Claymation Forum.

[dumeril]

Re:I have a question???

I'm not trying to argue or fight but 'if' there is a possible way to prove snakes are hets by some physical features then wouldn't most of the main breeders know how to tell??

[The_Boaphile]

Re:I have a question???

I don’t know why nobody else was able to have figured this out. I seem to have a knack for observation and have picked up on a number of things. Again this is going to sound like I’m bragging. I’m just trying to illustrate a point. There were many Boa breeders before I came along. Nobody else identified the following:

- Boas ovulate twice not once.
- Boas have a known gestation period length and not the previously believed 6 -10 months.
- Boas shed about 16 – 20 days after the second ovulation. This is now known as the P.O.S. or Post Ovulation Shed.
- Boas give birth 104 – 110 days after the P.O.S. Not always but nearly so.
- Gravid Boas sit in the Heat Conservation position.
- Gravid Boas run warmer; around 87 – 90 degrees when gravid given the opportunity to warm themselves properly. Non-gravid Boas don’t but are the same temp as the cool end of the cage.
- Boas tend or are more likely to give birth on rainy days.
- I identified the “Pre-Birth Waxy Stool”.
- I first identified the Pastel Trait in Boas.
- I was first to point out the fact that normal Boas from Hypo breedings were not het for anything.

I could go on but I think this illustrates the point. It was necessary to brag a bit to make it.

Nobody else let you know about these things without having learned it from something I wrote on it. Nobody else identified it either. That does not at all diminish the fact that these things are all known to be true today. I really have the knack for observation. Not because I am so smart but I just have the eye to see stuff, make a record of it, and confirm or deny it’s relevancy before I spring it on the world.

[dumeril]

Re:I have a question???

I don’t know why nobody else was able to have figured this out. I seem to have a knack for observation and have picked up on a number of things. Again this is going to sound like I’m bragging. I’m just trying to illustrate a point. There were many Boa breeders before I came along. Nobody else identified the following:

- Boas ovulate twice not once.
- Boas have a known gestation period length and not the previously believed 6 -10 months.
- Boas shed about 16 – 20 days after the second ovulation. This is now known as the P.O.S. or Post Ovulation Shed.- Boas give birth 104 – 110 days after the P.O.S. Not always but nearly so.
- Gravid Boas sit in the Heat Conservation position.
- Gravid Boas run warmer; around 87 – 90 degrees when gravid given the opportunity to warm themselves properly. Non-gravid Boas don’t but are the same temp as the cool end of the cage.
- Boas tend or are more likely to give birth on rainy days.
- I identified the “Pre-Birth Waxy Stool”.
- I first identified the Pastel Trait in Boas.
- I was first to point out the fact that normal Boas from Hypo breedings were not het for anything.

Nobody else let you know about these things without having learned it from something I wrote on it. Nobody else identified it either. That does not at all diminish the fact that these things are all known to be true today. I really have the knack for observation. Not because I am so smart but I just have the eye to see stuff, make a record of it, and confirm or deny it’s relevancy before I spring it on the world.

a few things..
First..
In your article in Reptiles Nove 1996 issue you stated Scott Michaels called you and told you that his female Suriname ovulated twice since then you noticed your boas did too. Also we just had some 100% het for albinos born and the female that had them had no P.O.S shed.

Second...
You picked 7 out of 8 pairs that were het.. that really isn't that hard. Could you pick 1 pair out of 8??
also if you can tell a snake is het then why do you sell 66% possible hets? If you can see a trait or characteristic in hets that non-hets have then you would only sel 100% hets and normals. and possibly 50% hets but not possible hets...

lastly..
If I sent you pics of 8 pairs of snakes could you pick the one pair hets out... I'd send clear pics of different parts of the snakes body

[eViL_KaRoT]

Re:I have a question???

Look, dumeril. What is it hurting you if he does claim to be able to tell Het, just by looking at them? He may be right, he may be wrong, It may be truth, it may just be a theory. I mean, who knows, this may be common knowledge in a few years or it may be a closely guarded secret amongst breeders. I mean, 30 years ago, if you were to tell a doctor that Autistic people were not necassarily retarded, he would have laughed in your face and said that you were a complete kook!! But now it's common knowledge. 50-60 years ago, if you were to tell a psyciatrist that people who are depressed or even psycotic can be cured with medicine, they would have through you in the insane asylum. Or even 20 years ago, if you were to tell a doctor that a mentally retarded couple only have a 30% chance of producing a mentally retarded child, again they would have laughed at you. But all these things are proven to be true!!! Look, right now this may just be a theory of Jeff's. So far it may have proven true, perhaps his theory will back fire on him in the future. Who knows. That's really not a reason to sit here continuing to ask for proof!! If he can do it just by looking at a snake, great, good for him. That'll help him in the future of breeding his own snakes. If it turns out that it doesn't have any fact behind it, then oh well. It's back to the drawing board. Every species have certain caracteristics that carry on from generation to generation. And if he happened to notice on certain trait, characteristic, act, scale, look, what ever the case may be that is only carried accross by certain Hets and may become more apparent, the larger the percentage, then he has a right to keep it to himself!!! As he said, he is under no obligation to share this information. Most people are pissed off at him and are trying to prove him wrong, because they want to information just to add an extra buck in their pocket when selling off stock. WHO CARES!!!!

[The_Boaphile]

Re:I have a question???

Oooo, I sense a bit of a little nastiness coming from you Mr. Dumeril, who I don’t know at all. Not sure why this would be so as all I have been trying to do is make a little clearer something that some people here were discussing when boom! Out of nowhere an attack. Unfortunately, I am not going to reciprocate. I choose rather to explain as opposed to attack. Attacks, especially internet attacks are typically used when putting together a good argument is not possible. So other than saying that, I’ll stick to the facts.

I just posted on the kingsnake.com Boa forum a couple weeks ago the fact that I had believed that Scott Michaels had been the one to discover the double ovulation thing. However shortly after this Scott emailed me and said he had not done so. He said that he had called to tell me he had this second swelling and that he had not identified the fact that it was a second ovulation. I had taken the info he gave me and figured it out myself. Perhaps while on the very same phone call. Apparently I can’t remember it exactly correctly but I do know that Scott just emailed me in the last week setting me straight that in fact he hadn’t identified it but that I had.

Also, guess what? Many Boas have not read my writings on the topic including some of my own. They don’t ALWAYS follow what I have written to a T. However the vast majority of them do. I have had Boas also give birth without having a P.O.S. Several times after I wrote the original article. I have also had Boas go 119 days past the P.O.S. before delivering babies. I have one right now that has gone 125 days so far. Somehow I have not felt threatened by the fact that not every single breeding ever accomplished by anyone has not exactly followed my cookie cutter template. But the fact is animals will do what animals do. They will do what they want to do when they want to do it. If your point is that EVERYTHING I have written on Boa Breeding is bogus, and then back it up with your data. Not the data of one breeding which statistically is very insignificant, but the data of scores of breedings. When you have that data and would like to make a statement trying to diminish or devalue the information I have compiled, then have it published and let the masses judge.

As for what you said,

“You picked 7 out of 8 pairs that were het.. that really isn't that hard. Could you pick 1 pair out of 8?? “

Let me explain the math to illustrate the statistical significance of breeding 16 pairs of 66% possible hets together successfully and correctly predicting fifteen of sixteen breedings outcomes. This is 32 Boas. 66% of them statistically are likely het since their parents were in fact hets. Now I paired up all of these animals and using my little theory, and correctly predicted what 15 of the 16 would produce. A single pair of 66% possible het for Albino Boas have a 44% chance of both being hets and thus being capable of producing Albinos. This means for each of these sixteen separate breedings I have less than a 50% chance of being correct if chance is the only factor used in determining my choice. This is similar, although more difficult than predicting a simple coin toss 15 of sixteen times correctly. Try it. Have someone flip a coin 16 times. Each time before the flip guess the outcome. You have a far better chance of being able to predict this at a one in 32,768 chance of doing this successfully. This too is statistically virtually impossible but still seven times more likely than the scenario I was challenged with if the only factor is luck and there is nothing to my theory. It is statistically impossible to do this. This is if I have my math correct a one in 222,951 chance that it was just luck. Of course I might have made the whole thing up. If I did, what difference does any of this make? Of course I could have made up all the Boa breeding stuff I have written as well. Actually it was much easier for me to predict because of my little theory. Of course all of this is a moot point if I made everything up.

As for if I think my theory is correct why do I still sell “possible” hets instead of selling the animals I think are het as hets. This is exactly one reason I will not tell everyone what my theory is. I am afraid many would do this and somehow I could get the blame for these unscrupulous breeders action. I only sell the animals I think are het as possible hets now. This is one curse I have since discovering this. Ask Clay. I sold Clay Boas that were the product of het to het breedings that I believed were not het and told him so. That is a FACT. Ask him.

I really don’t want to fight about it and am doing my best to restrain myself here Dr. Claymation. I hope I’m not out of line. I mostly publish or make public that stuff I think to be true to help the hobby. To encourage those many first time breeders that they too can breed their Boas. That you can in fact have an idea how everything happens and what you can do to increase the likelihood that you will be successful. This het non-het theory is just a big problem. Many are mad at me because I will not tell them. I have told some people who have been sworn to secrecy who have also been able to see that their could be something to it. It is only a matter of time before everyone knows. I just don’t want to open the can of worms that would be opened if I make it widely public. So I will not. But then, if you think I can’t know then what difference does anything I say about it make? None really. None and all of this is meaningless.

I’m going to bed right after I check and see if any of those Boas have had those babies I am expecting. It is raining here you know and a number of females are all over the place looking for babies including that stinking snake that has gone 125 days after the P.O.S. What’s most frustrating is I read her the article five times this year! I think she must be deaf!

Nighty night,

Jeff Ronne

P.S. Two weeks ago tomorrow one of my “Washington” Bloodline females gave birth to 9 beautiful Hypos and 10 normals. Guess what? There wasn’t a cloud in the sky that day. Drives me crazy they sometimes just don’t listen.