Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Prodigy and BWC Comparison Shots

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Prodigy and BWC Comparison Shots

    Boas in Paradise. Or to be more accurate, "Paradise Boas". Now I understand that a full term Paradise Boa has yet to be produced. I also understand that some of the same people critical of me naming an animal before it is produced, wish to diminish half of the project needed to make this new combo mutation, by saying it is the same as another mutation that has been around for more than 25 years. Well, yesterday I posted a series of images that must remove all doubt from anyone thinking honestly about these two distinctly different appearing mutations being "the same", or genetically identical. The possibility that they happen to reside on the same allele does not in any way prove them to be identical. Not any more than the Sharp Albino and the BWC MUST be the same because they reside on the same allele. Nobody is claiming that. Even for those who would stubbornly refuse to accept the obvious, that these two are not identical, must at the least acknowledge that their appearances are drastically different. For simplicity's sake those people, to maintain some level of intellectual honesty, could identify them as the Prodigy version of the BWC if they wanted to, despite the counterintuitive nature of such an identification. There is in fact a way to PROVE it though.

    Prodigies and littermates on the left. Boa Woman Caramels and littermates on the right:




    Anyone wishing to prove it can do so very simply. All one needs to do is breed a BWC to a Prodigy and make the inevitable new type of “paradigm type” Boa that visually will be the same regardless if the mutation is identical or not. They will look probably more on the yellowish side than the BWCs look, but not as yellow as the Prodigies do. They may look a little cleaner in the background too like the Prodigies. Then breed two of these offspring to each other. If they are identical, you will make more just like the Mom and Dad. If they are NOT identical, you will make obvious Prodigies (1 in 4), BWCs (Again 1 in 4) and the other half will be the new “paradigm type” (2 in 4).

    Two Prodigies in with BWCs and their littermates:




    Case in point and a similar analogy; Motleys and Central American Motleys. I never heard anyone who originally had the more desirable and more highly sought after Colombian Motleys jump up and down screaming that Alex Barreiro identify his newer Central American Motleys as the exact same thing when they popped up several years after the Colombian Motleys. Alex didn’t do that because they clearly were not the same. They have proven to both reside on the exact same gene too by the way. However, they have distinctly different looks to them, though I would contend, not as extreme in difference as the Prodigies and the BWCs are visually. This despite the fact that when bred together they in fact do make Super Motleys that also die just like the Colombian Motleys. In my opinion, the motivating reason for some who would attach the sameness label to the Prodigies, is that they are more extreme an example of a T-Positive animal and fundamentally more attractive to most people. This is the exact opposite of the Central American Motleys which most would agree are not as attractive on average as the Colombian Motleys. This is human nature on display.


    Prodigies and their own littermates:



    I must admit as the second largest group of BWC/Paradigm animals, I have been a little dismayed at the reaction of some to the possibility that the Prodigy may reside on the same allele as both the Sharp Albino and the BWC Boas. For instance, the breeders of the Russian Blondes claim that their T-Pos animals also reside on that location. They have not done an even remotely adequate job of explaining some of their breeding results, yet I have never seen any of the BWC guys claiming they have to admit theirs are BWCs too. That is human nature I suppose as the Russian T-Pos are the least extreme of any of the forms of T-Positives that have been identified and proven.


    Boa Woman Caramels and their littermates:



    Prediction! Who is up for a little prediction!?!?

    If the Prodigy mutation does prove to reside on the same allele as the Sharp Albino, here are a few thoughts I have on the resulting offspring:

    - The BWC and the Sharp Albino mutations together make a Paradigm Boa. The Paradigm Boas are lighter than are the BWC Boas. This is because you don’t get a true average of the Sharp and BWC mutations, but the resulting visual animals are definitely pulled in the more extreme direction of the Sharp Albinos away from the normal BWC look.

    - I believe the same thing is going to happen in the case of the Prodigy and the Sharp mutations together. I believe the Sharp mutation will pull the visual Prodigy to a more extreme position than it’s normal visual appearance. The Prodigies are quite yellow to buckskin in their ground color appearance. The Paradigms have strong red influence just like the BWC animals which in my mind is the primary color shift in the difference between the BWCs and the Prodigies. Part of what make the Prodigies so cool , in my mind, is they are the yellowish color you see on the most extreme of Peruvian Red Tails and the most brilliant of all the non-hypo Jungles that have been produced. This color and look is just so attractive and desirable among the masses of Boa enthusiasts everywhere. At least my hope is that the Sharp does not bring a bunch of red influence to the Paradise Boas and they they become an even more extreme buckskin to perhaps even virtually white combo mutant. A guy can dream can't he?!



    Boa Woman Caramel in with several Prodigies. Note the tail contrast as well between the different mutations:



    Please note: This in not in any way any kind of an attack on the BWC animals. I have and will continue to work with the BWC line of T-Positives. That has not changed.



    This has been my sort of putting to paper my thoughts on this particular selective breeding adventure. When you step off the edge of the Earth, you never really know how far it is to the bottom or what will be at the bottom when you get there. Of course this is purely an exercise in a little experiment and not the discovery of a cure for cancer. LOL Just me babbling again. So that is my case. I look forward very much to seeing if I am wrong about this, as that is a distinct possibility, or if it all plays out like I hope it will. This is going to be fun to watch.




    On June 11, 2011 we were fortunate to prove that the Prodigy and the Sharp are located on the same allele making the new "Paradise Boas". This just like the BWC and the Sharp mutations make the "Paradigm Boas". Here are a few comparison shots of two month old Paradigm Boas right along side two month old Paradise Boas.

    Paradigm first then Paradise. Three pairs of pictures:










    Just by way of explanation of different backgrounds; Boas that tend more toward earthy colors and tans I take pictures of on either Aspen or in a wicker basket I borrow from my wife. Boas that lean more havily toward pinks and oranges, I take on the green stuff. Both different ways I think tend to bring out the best of each type.

    Another tan example is a Prodigy Boa in the basket:


    theboaphile.com
    boaphileplastics.com


  • #2
    Re: Prodigy and BWC Comparison Shots

    No one can pretend to know what's going on with that, except you. If you can prove it, kudos to you. If not, it was worth a shot anyway. No one can argue truth.
    People also tell me my caramel is descendent of VPI origins, because she looks almost identical to one. Somehow the boa gods brought two RANDOM snakes together (one from bill kerby the other from a tampa show; one pastel, the other hypo het anery) that were both het for vpi caramel, in 2006, and produced 1 homozygous animal out of a litter of 25. Pretty far fetched if you ask me. But there's no point in arguing, since I've not even bred her. This is also the reason I've not named her, since she's the only one of her kind, her name is mimosa. When it becomes a line, I'll respectfully give that line a name.
    I think most of the garbage I heard about your paradise boas in a negative light were because you named a dead boa from if I understand correctly, a premature litter. I think they look nice, prove your animals like you have in the past and everyone will have to eat their words.
    Last edited by cutyouuploco; 09-04-2011, 05:34 PM. Reason: typo

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Prodigy and BWC Comparison Shots

      Ok have no clue why this dropped out of the top 20 yet.... this a great read, and you of all people Jeff know there are so many people that hate on the prodigies a lot of big names are not sold on them yet and I dont uderstand why THEY ARE THE BEST LOOKING T+ STRAIN OUT THERE and I dont know why there is so much antomisty towards the project. The prodigy is clearly a different line then anything out there right now.


      You need to post this on RI I am very curious what they would have to say

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by MSwift View Post
        Ok have no clue why this dropped out of the top 20 yet.... this a great read, and you of all people Jeff know there are so many people that hate on the prodigies a lot of big names are not sold on them yet and I dont uderstand why THEY ARE THE BEST LOOKING T+ STRAIN OUT THERE and I dont know why there is so much antomisty towards the project. The prodigy is clearly a different line then anything out there right now.


        You need to post this on RI I am very curious what they would have to say

        Agreed, although I'm not sold on these guys you make Jeff... Feel free to send a couple of these ugly monsters you made.

        Sent from my iPhone using The power of Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Prodigy and BWC Comparison Shots

          @The_Boaphile You'll hear no argument from me regarding Prodigy being its own exclusive trait. Will you be bringing any to Tinley? It would probably remove a lot of doubt if people were able to see them in person.

          PS - Thanks for sharing the pics. They're really quite beautiful animals.
          sigpic

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Prodigy and BWC Comparison Shots

            Originally posted by natieb View Post
            [MENTION=539]The_Boaphile[/MENTION] You'll hear no argument from me regarding Prodigy being its own exclusive trait. Will you be bringing any to Tinley? It would probably remove a lot of doubt if people were able to see them in person.

            I concur. To me they are their own line.


            Tim

            http://www.facebook.com/BoidsOhio?bookmark_t=page


            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Prodigy and BWC Comparison Shots

              Im with the rest of these folks. Just seeing the comparison shots that youve posted here over the last few months removed any doubt that Ive got. And I agree with Nate...Would love to see some of these bad boys at Tinley. At the very least Ill be talking to you about potentially picking one up.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Prodigy and BWC Comparison Shots

                How did I miss this wonderful post yesterday, oh that's right I was busy.

                Interesting to see how this will play out when the two are bred together
                and the final products are displayed

                Lar M
                Boas By Klevitz

                sigpic

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Prodigy and BWC Comparison Shots

                  I don't have any previous knowledge on the topic and I'm not going to pretend to. But, just to ask....would it be possible that the BWC and prodigy are both the same mutation, and the distinguishing characteristics you point to (color/contrast) could merely be the result of unintended line breeding? If no one has bred a BWC and Prodigy then it makes sense that they would "evolve" into two separate phenotypes, similar to all the different hypo lines.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Prodigy and BWC Comparison Shots

                    Originally posted by BoigaBoid View Post
                    would it be possible that the BWC and prodigy are both the same mutation, and the distinguishing characteristics you point to (color/contrast) could merely be the result of unintended line breeding?
                    That's the stance of the nay-sayers Jeff was referring to in the OP. His stance (that I tend to agree with) is that they are sufficiently different as to be a separate, but related (due to their compatibility with Sharp), mutation.
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Prodigy and BWC Comparison Shots

                      Also "Line Breeding" is basically another word for inbreeding / interbreeding.

                      So if that were the case the Prodigy mutation would have shown itself long before
                      Clay bred Delilah to Surfer Dude/California Dude.

                      If you really intended to say somewhat "unintended selective breeding" that resulted in
                      lighter cleaner more colorful individuals that carried the hidden mutation.

                      That scenario can not be entirely ruled out but seems to be quite far fetched.

                      As Nate pointed out the Nay sayers are seemingly pointing at this
                      quite far fetched but not entirely impossible scenario.

                      The Phenotypic variation we see between the Prodigy and BWC
                      then also the Paradigm vs. Paradise seems too extreme in my opinion.

                      Base color and possibly just as important the tail and tail band color are extraordinarily dissimilar !

                      Lar M
                      Boas By Klevitz

                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Prodigy and BWC Comparison Shots

                        has it already been proven to be compatible with sharp albinos?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Prodigy and BWC Comparison Shots

                          Originally posted by cutyouuploco View Post
                          has it already been proven to be compatible with sharp albinos?
                          Yes. It has.

                          Originally posted by The_Boaphile View Post
                          On June 11, 2011 we were fortunate to prove that the Prodigy and the Sharp are located on the same allele making the new "Paradise Boas"


                          Tim

                          http://www.facebook.com/BoidsOhio?bookmark_t=page


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Prodigy and BWC Comparison Shots

                            Originally posted by BoigaBoid View Post
                            I don't have any previous knowledge on the topic and I'm not going to pretend to. But, just to ask....would it be possible that the BWC and prodigy are both the same mutation, and the distinguishing characteristics you point to (color/contrast) could merely be the result of unintended line breeding? If no one has bred a BWC and Prodigy then it makes sense that they would "evolve" into two separate phenotypes, similar to all the different hypo lines.
                            Originally posted by cutyouuploco View Post
                            has it already been proven to be compatible with sharp albinos?

                            I took a lot of time to write the words in between the pictures in this post, that would have helped you avoid asking the questions you asked. I hope that doesn't sound too harsh, but for someone who takes the time to write information that can be helpful, it would be nice to see some who chimes in, that has actually read the prior postings. I don't mean offense so I hope none is taken.

                            And as Larry mentioned, "Line Bred" means inbred. Except for the litter this year I produced of Prodigies and Hets, there has not been a since instance of any breeding of any related animals. However, every single BWC that has been produced was produced via breeding a related animal. In fact they are at least several generation deep now. Most people are out-breeding as much as possible which is a good thing. I only mention that to completely alleviate your completely incarcerate assertion as a possibility, of the Prodigies being different due to inbreeding. That is not the case. Plus we have previously exhaustively made the case for the Prodigies being independently developed. The pictures simply illustrate the visual differences.

                            One line has been around since the 1980's. The other only showed itself a few years ago.

                            All that being said, it is entirely possible that the BWC and the Prodigy mutations may be exactly identical. That is possible. But the clear drastic differences say not. Still, if they are identical, people will gravitate to the look they like best. Whatever that look is. That is all good.

                            :-)

                            theboaphile.com
                            boaphileplastics.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Prodigy and BWC Comparison Shots

                              Oh I see. Must have missed that part. No offense taken there, Jeff, I'm made of stone.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X