[Regurgitation] Poop and a Regurgitation

[MLynch]

So I came down a little while ago to do my spot clean/check for the day. I'd been down a couple of times and today and looked in on my snakes, but didn't have the chance to poke in hides, look under stuff, and change water.

Eddie - my DH Sunglow - had been fine all day. On initial looks there was no poop or pee to be cleaned... but when I came down I was greeted with a regurgitated mouse hopper and a huge poo (which also included some urates).

The poo looked like normal mouse hopper based poop, and the urates looked good. I can't tell you if the poo smelled normal as the smell of the regurgitated mouse filled the cage, but being that it looked normal I'd assume it would have smelled normal as well.

Eddie is about 3 months old. He's a DH Sunglow BCI, and just recovered from a minor bout of scale rot. His temps are 90 on the warm side and 82 on the cool side with humidity between 60 and 70%. He's still on paper towel substrate (unrolled and flat - not shredded). The meal that he regurg'd was from Thursday - which he ate quickly and easily - a f/t mouse hopper (one of my last - I have an order of rat pinkies coming next week).

My wife just informed me that our 18 month old son had been in here with her early and he was right up on the window - not hitting, but very excited, and Eddie was watching him from the other side of the window... I'm wondering if he didn't get stressed out from the brief encounter with my son (who gets very excited about the snakes). My wife said she took him away as soon as she saw him at the cage. I don't know, I'm not entirely convinced this is due to the stress of my son since it doesn't sound like he was at the cage window for very long.

...sigh... this poor guy. He gets over one hurdle only to face another.

Well, I guess all I can do is monitor and wait 2 to 3 weeks and try feeding again. ...keeping fingers crossed.

[jvarner]

Re: Poop and a Regurgitation

Sorry to hear this Mike. Wait 3-4 weeks to feed again. Minimal handling and lay-off any medicine and antibacterial treatments until he is able to keep a meal down.

The next meal should be smaller than the Hopper that he regurged. He will make it Mike, I promise.

His heat and humidity sound great! Keep up the good work!

[bladeblaster]

Re: Poop and a Regurgitation

Sorry to hear this Mike. Wait 3-4 weeks to feed again. Minimal handling and lay-off any medicine and antibacterial treatments until he is able to keep a meal down.

The next meal should be smaller than the Hopper that he regurged. He will make it Mike, I promise.

His heat and humidity sound great! Keep up the good work!

agree with this, leave him 4 weeks, then give him a pinkie for his next couple of feeds.

[bterrill]

Re: Poop and a Regurgitation

Yeah, I think 4 weeks is what most are saying for the belly lining (forgot the fancy word) to be restored from the regurg. I think pinkies will be a good choice also.

That poor guy has been through a lot, but we know he is a fighter. Best of luck on this and keep us posted.

[jhsulliv]

Re: Poop and a Regurgitation

Had he regurgitated before or was it just the scale rot that he had? All of his scale rot has cleared up well though, right?

[Re4mer]

Re: Poop and a Regurgitation

I agree with what everybody else is saying for the most part. I would like to recommend that you do a "feeding log" to track progress and identify abnormalities. It doesn't have to be elaborate, just a small note book that lists the dates that he eats, defecates, urinates, and if he regurgitates write that in there too. If something is odd make a note of it that way if you have to go to the vet you can help him track whats normal and abnormal behavior for your boa.

[MLynch]

Re: Poop and a Regurgitation

Thanks, guys.

4 weeks? OK. ..Is 4 weeks safe for a 3 month old boa? at this age I start getting nervous around 30 days for fear of malnutrition/starvation. I'm all for "better safe than sorry," and I'm not challenging, I'm just curious is all.

Pinkie mouse - will do. I was planning on picking some up this week to have on hand for when I try feeding him again, and I was thinking that three or four feedings on the pinkie mice might not hurt to help his system get back on line (as it were).

Joley - this is his first regurgitation. He's fed twice with no issues. This was his third meal with me. And his scale rot is all cleared up.

Re4mer - Feeding Log? Check! All of my snakes have data cards to track feeding, poops, urates, sheds, cage cleanings, etc. As well as any abnormalities in daily/weekly/monthly activities. It was something I got myself into when I first started keeping boas back in the 80's. back then it was a note book for each snake. Now it's a 5.5"x8.5" card that I created in MS Word, and print out as I need others.

Here's my BCI data card. I have one for my BRB as well. It's nothing elaborate, but it does what I need it to.


UPDATE: I've been thinking about Eddie's environment. He's on paper towels and does not use his hide... at all. He spent a fair amount of time on the warm side the past few days, and I'm wondering if he didn't get too warm and that didn't play a part in his regurg. The paper towels are four layers thick... This is thinner than what he would have if he had mulch. Perhaps he needs more of a buffer between himself and the UTH, so I've doubled that to 8 towels. I've also covered the window of his cage with newspaper. Folded in half the paper covers a almost 2/3 of the window. This way the cage itself becomes more of a hide. He still gets light from the room, I can still easily see is gauges to check temps and humidity, and if I get close enough I can see how he's doing and the floor space of his cage, but he can't see out into the room, and nearly all of the activity in the room would be obscured.

My boas are not in a high traffic area - they are in my office, and usually I'm the only one in here. And my other two spend the bulk of their time in their hides and don't come out until after dark, so what little activity there is in here has little effect on them. I should also mention that the entrance to their hides face the side/wall of their cages, so even in their hides they are not visible to me, and they can't see anything that goes on in the room. So they are very well hidden and secure. They also disappear into their hides for 2 or 3 days after eating... Eddie is out in the open all of the time. He refuses to use a hide, so I'm thinking I need to make his cage a hide to reduce the possibility of stress and add to a sense of security. ...Of course I can't help but wonder if this won't make him more nervous when he comes out for handling.

[bladeblaster]

Re: Poop and a Regurgitation

4 weeks without food is no problem at all for a young boa, and is certainly better than subsequent regurges.

What temps do you have above the UTH, and where are you measuring the temps?

I wouldn't have thought that too high a temp would have casued a regurge, but it could cause other problems over a long period.

[jhsulliv]

Re: Poop and a Regurgitation

I seem to recall a post by Jeff about the temperatures he keeps young boas at being lower than what many of us do for this very reason. Too low and they don't digest well, but let me see if I can find Jeff's post.

[bterrill]

Re: Poop and a Regurgitation

I think the 4 week timeframe is based upon the stomach lining which is seriously messed up on regurging. I've only read about this but I am pretty sure the people talking about it were some of the longer term posters here.

Considering he might regurg again I think that is another reason the wait is there. I've read if they regurg 3 times that can be the end of things so the time is supposed to let their stomachs heal up (again Idon't remember the word for what gets messed up, but it does repair itself)

[bladeblaster]

Re: Poop and a Regurgitation

The problem with regurging is 2 fold really, and ends in a vicous circle than can be fatal.

Firstly the snakes digestive juices, the gut flora, are regurged at the same time as the prey. This flora takes several weeks to build up again sufficiently to enable digestion. The second thing that happens, is the stomach lining is damaged, as it heals, it thickens the stomache lining, making it even harder for the snake to produce sufficient gut flora. The mroe regurges, the thicker and thicker the stomach lining gets, until eventually the snake is unable to digest anything.

This is why it is vitaly inmportant to give the snake a good period to replenish the gut flora.

You can use a product called Carnivor Care, which is a supplement that should help build the gut flora.

[MLynch]

Re: Poop and a Regurgitation

I seem to recall a post by Jeff about the temperatures he keeps young boas at being lower than what many of us do for this very reason. Too low and they don't digest well, but let me see if I can find Jeff's post.

****! ...I'd forgotten about that! When I first got Bella (my female BCI) I had her at 85 warm and 80 cool for a while, and after a few months raised it a little to 88 warm and 82 cool - which is still where it is.

I had raised Eddie's temps a little to help with the scale rot, and then dropped them a bit recently after his shed, but I don't think I dropped them enough. I've now lowered his warm side to 85 and his cool side is now at 80. ...I hate the thought that he may have regurg'd due to my own negligence!

BTW - he's been parked on the warm side since his regurg. Is this normal? I can't remeber the last time a boa regurg'd on me, so I can't recall if this is normal behavior or not. Does this help in rebuilding his gut flora?

Thanks for the suggestion of the Carnivore Care, bladeblaster. Much appreciated.

[MLynch]

Re: Poop and a Regurgitation

UPDATE:

Well, he's finally moved to the cool side, and I picked up some mouse pinkies so I'll be all set in a few weeks when I try feeding again.

Question: Should I feed 4 weeks from his last feeding, or 4 weeks from the regurg date? Not that it maters much, I suppose, since he regurg'd two days after he ate.

[bladeblaster]

Re: Poop and a Regurgitation

like you say 2 days isn't gonna make a huge deal of difference, but I would go with 4 weeks from the regurge TBH

[MLynch]

Re: Poop and a Regurgitation

OK, so I was looking over the Ultimate Care Guide, and it says to wait 2 weeks before feeding after a regurg.

I'm planning on skipping this week's feeding which would be two weeks since the regurg, but Eddie's starting to look pretty skinny. His skin is looking loose (much like before his last shed. Since he regurg'd before his meal was digested he's now up to three weeks since the last meal that stayed down, so his nutrition levels are down (and he's pooped that meal - on the 17th to be exact.).

It's been ages since I've had to deal with a regurg, so I'm a little anxious. ...Would attempting a mouse pink next week (three weeks from the regurg) be a really bad idea? Everyone's input (which I really appreciate, BTW ) is to wait 4 weeks, and the UCG says to wait 2 weeks.

Just curious. Thanks, guys!