Question regarding Snake Mite Treatments

[TSL]

I have been told that Sawyer's Tick Spray is the exact same thing as Provent a mite. Is this true?

I was told I could purchase Sawyer's tick spray from Wal-Mart, and that it was much cheeper than Provent a mite... that it has the exact same ingredients and everything.

Does anyone have any knowledge of Sawyer's Tick spray being used to treat snake mites?

I e-mailed pro-products asking them about this, but have not received a response.

Anyone have any info to help with my research?

[ClayEnglish]

Re: Question regarding Snake Mite Treatments

Give Bob Pound a chance to respond and he will with all the details.  He is great at getting into the details..

Warning.  This is a touchy subject of mine so do not continue
reading unless you want to know why I think using products like NIX or Tick spray is insane.

Let me summarize it for you.

NO!

The products are NOT alike.  Although I have not personally checked out the Tick spray, theree are many products as well as Nix (the lice product) and even others are always compared to Provent-a-mite.  Yes they may have similar ingredients and even similar percentages of active ingredients.  But when .01 can make the difference between harmful and safe, we should not play with something we do not understand.

There is only one product (that contains the same active ingredients as these products in question) that has been FDA approved for use with reptiles is provent-a-mite.

I wish I could find the original post where an indept discussion was made on these products.  We even had a member with a background in chemistry that made great analogies into the vast differences that exist in minute quantity percentage changes.

Oh well I ramble, hopefully Bob will answer your email. He also posts a phone number and I have personally talked to him and he will generally answer or return your call.

Also this is not a question of whether the Tick spray will kill the mites.  I guarantee you it will kill the live mites.  Question is will it kill your snake, and if the snake survives what could be an improper dosage (it does not have a recommended usage for reptiles)  will it kill the life "cycle" of the mites.

I may be coming from a different angle, because I have so many boas, and have some I consider very valuable, but I would hope everyone would consider even their only boa as valuable.  I do not worry about the 10 dollar price difference between a product that is proven over and over to do the job first time every time, and a cheaper product that is not approved for use in reptiles.

Okay folks, let me have it.  I usally get THUMPED when I tackle this issue....

[TSL]

Re: Question regarding Snake Mite Treatments

Clay, thank you for replying. In the interm time, I did receive a response from Pro-Products. The reason I am asking is because I am a member of Practical Pet Care, and there is an individual there that insists that Sawyer's Tick Spray is the exact same thing as Provent-A-Mite. I advised that I felt it was irresponsible to suggest Sawyer's Tick Spray as a treatment option, because this product is not intended for use on snakes. The individual however, insists it is fine, and that they are both made by the same manufacterer, with the same ingredients, and same product number. I have researched a whole bunch on this, and was even sent to: http://www.redtailboa.net/modules.ph...mp;topic=10526
regarding a discussion about this very thing.

Since I have always used Provent-A-Mite, and never used over the counter tick sprays, I am now being told that I should not involve myself in issues if I have no first hand knowledge of it. Which is rediculous since I have never used Raid to treat for mites, but I know enough to know that no one should!

Is there any information out there that shows that Sawyer's Tick Spray is dangerous to use to treat reptiles for mites?

Thanks for any help... My quest will continue!

[ClayEnglish]

Re: Question regarding Snake Mite Treatments

Not that I am aware of, although there was some information at one time on using NIX on reptiles.

The problem is they can argue until they are blue in the face but the fact remains, only Provent-a-mite has been approved by the FDA for use on reptiles.

Basically using Nix or Tick Spray on reptiles is a violation of the law, although the "tick-spray-police" are not likely to show up on your doorstep. ;D

[LORI]

Re: Question regarding Snake Mite Treatments

UT OH!!!  ??? Ya just opened a "can o worms" ya know ! LOL

I am one of the people who use the Sawyers Tick spray on my snake's ENCLOSURES..In the SAME manner that the Provent a mite is used SAFELY to eradicate mites from snakes/enclosures. NOTE: You should NEVER place either product directly on your snakes at all ! Either one should only be placed/utilized within the confines of the reptiles enclosure...NEVER directly on the reptile/snake !!!!!!

Clay???? hehe....

Okay folks, let me have it.  I usally get THUMPED when I tackle this issue....

Sorry, BUT it might just be me that does that to you.  :

FYI... That link that you posted to on www.redtailboa.net TSl...I am LORI_SnakesRule on that thread. I am one of the lead admins on that site. I believe that thread is the one that recently took place where we had people from BOTH of the products [ Sawyers and PAm ] posting on the thread also. FYI>>>>> The PAM is labeled to be applied on the substrate of the caging..NOT on the snake directly ! Allthough it is noted as being directly applied to tortoises with some exclusion to not apply it to the genitalia and/or eye areas at all. [i]What I would like to know is just why this is reccomended on the can this way when there is nothing I have come across, BUT may have missed it possibly cuz I was MAJORLY PI$$ED off over the fact that live snakes were intentionally killed in the testing of PAM for it's patent for reptile use....As noted on the Patent application information for the PAM product that is on file.

ANYWAYS....
Here's some pages of mine that are relative to the PAM vs Sawyers thing.... http://www.koalaskritters.net/sawyersvspam.html

here's another page that I have for the listing of what I have used the Sawyers product in the ENCLOSURES of reptilianwise and also STEP BY STEP INSTRUCTIONS on how those of us using it go about using it to eradicate mites and also as a preventative.  http://www.koalaskritters.net/sawyersuse.html

TSL...The patent info can be found on this page>>>> http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...S=PN/6,121,318 for the provent a mite.

Take note that the product known as Sawyers is listed with the EPA as a MITICIDE ie...a chemical that is used for the eradication of MITES.

STL...FYI... I have spoken with Sawyers in regards to their product on MULTIPLE occasion recently and it's comparativeness to the provent a mite product. Discussion was further carried through to the originator of the product's inert ingredient that is the actual killer of the mites and also with one of the chemists from Sawyers too. From such I have deduced that I shall continue to utilize the Sawyers product rather than the provent a mite product...it's ONLY a labeling thing from all the information that I have found in researching the two products in depth.  

Hope that answers/clarifies some for you on the subject at hand.  ;D

Question is will it kill your snake,

Provent a mite has been noted as being a killer of snakes, when directly applied to the snakes . This can be seen in the patent application information in the link I placed above for such for the product. It is noted as having killed snakes in testing within the information. NOW , Would Sawyers do this also ? My guess would be YES from the information that I have found in my research of the two products...If placed directly on a snake that is . They are the SAME product , produced by the SAME chemical company even...just labeled differently as to their exact usage is all. Provent a mite also holds the patent for the product to be labeled as being used for mites / reptiles.

Bottom line...Use what ya want. Myself..I prefer to use a product that will indeed work...which I have found in Sawyers...I previously used Provent a mite though. I am NOT saying that the provent a mite product does not work..It is affective for what it is used for...eradication of mites..just like the sawyers is also....Inside reptile enclosures...NOT in direct application of either product to your snake///that will kill the snake no doubt IMO.
Clay.. I use the Sawyers in a cage that houses a snake I have in my collection that is worth $1500 w/out a worry and no ill affect to the snake at all either. My collection is worth a lot to me , some of them are high valued animals on the market, some are not......If I had a doubt about the Sawyers product at all...I would NOT be using it in the enclosures of my reptiles at all. Same as if I had doubts about the provent a mite product..I would not have used that one in any enclosures of my reptiles either. HECK! IF I had known about the testing and resultative killings of snakes for the purpose of obtaining a patent for the provent a mite product..I NEVER would have used that product at all either in the first place when I used to either.

[LORI]

Re: Question regarding Snake Mite Treatments

Basically using Nix or Tick Spray on reptiles is a violation of the law, although the "tick-spray-police" are not likely to show up on your doorstep.

YUP..True that BUT noone has said to directly place the Sawyers on the reptiles/snakes at all that I am aware of. If they are, then they need to be informed as to how to use it and what it has been approved for also. Sawyers has been approved for the eradication of mites. There is no restrictive listing on EXACTLY what it may be applied on. It is listed as being for "household" use..That is how those of us whom use it are using it. We apply it to housing/caging/enclosures ;D

Was that "thump" loud enough ?? LOL

[ClayEnglish]

Re: Question regarding Snake Mite Treatments

Of course, I knew it was coming Lori, and I did not expect anything less ;D ;D ;D

There are many many products that kill mites, and some are used correctly by certain individuals without incident. Jeff Ronne has used no pest strips for 17 years without incident. It is not a method I recommend, but for him it has been flawless.

Provent-a-mite is still the only one FDA approved for use with reptiles. Not ON reptiles, but in and around reptile substrate and enclosures.

[LORI]

Re: Question regarding Snake Mite Treatments

Provent-a-mite is still the only one FDA approved for use with reptiles. Not ON reptiles, but in and around reptile substrate and enclosures.

That seems to be the most problematic thing with using the provent a mite product that I have come across....People using it directly on their reptiles such as snakes. Then of course they go and tell others to do the same and apply it directly to a snake. ONLY within the enclosure/cage is it being properly used....NOT when applied directly on a snake.

I'd still like to see the information that relates this product to be used directly on torts though. I didn't notice such on the patent information for the product, YET it is labeled as one of the application methods for it's use on the label. Still wonder if I missed it in the info on the patent application testing methodology somewhere ???

Yeah...I do know SOME people who use the pset strip method also with np's. BUT I also know more people who have a problem using them too for mites. I also have taken MANY inquiries on "sick" snakes only to find that the snake is/was being treated for mites and it was vapona that was being used for such also. Like any other product that has/is being used by people for mite eradication......People MUST make sure to follow the EXACT procedure that has been determined to work in such a manner that it does NOT cause any ill affect to the reptile[s] at all. NOTE: I am refering to the methodology utilized over time by herp keepers and what they have concluded in relation to such products here. A given track record of a product's use is what leads up to it being possibly denoted as an adequate method for the problem at hand. Basically...a form of testing, with conclusive data emitted over time that is passed on to others. ;D

[ClayEnglish]

Re: Question regarding Snake Mite Treatments

Oh and just for the record (although it should be obvious in my posts) I use provent-a-mite exclusively.

I continue to use it as a preventative measure. I do not take in rescues as a full time position, but on rare occasions, I will take in one. I also still purchase boas from time to time, and I use provent-a-mite to prepare enclosures for quarantine time, yes even ones purchased from Jeff Ronne and Pete Kahl. I figure better safe than sorry.

I am 100% mite free and have been for several years now. People who have purchased from me can attest to this, and because of this, I just stick with what works.

Yes I spend more money, but I don't place a value on that peace of mind.

You know it is just like my favorite chinese food, spicy hunan chicken. I get it everytime without question. I know what to expect, and I know I will like the results.

[SaKSTa]

Re: Question regarding Snake Mite Treatments

Chinese food is GREAT!!! s30.gif

[LORI]

Re: Question regarding Snake Mite Treatments

Unfortunately I deal with mites often due to taking in rescues....I'd say that about 75% of the snakes that i receive in rescue recently have come in with mites..UGH. So of course I utilize a preventive thing for mites in my collection's cages also. them dang lil buggers can travel big time when they want to. We also spray ourselves down with the Sawyer's spray when we deal with rescues, especially picking them up. Handling snakes with mites is a great way to transfer mites to any other reptile we come into contact with. We do have to handle rescues on initial pick up that have mites, so it is a needed venue in the prevention of them transfering over to our collection also.

YUP, I knew that you use the provent a mite product no doubt from your posting. If you have found something that works for you, then just like the rest of us, by all means use it ;D Different products are found to be workable by different people no doubt with success...

Clay uses Provent a mite

Lori uses Sawyers [ sometimes mineral oil for MAJOR infestation on a rescue prior to caging it]

Jeff uses no pest strips [ vapona I assume??]

Pro Products uses black knight on every animal they get in for the prevention of mites according to their website.

I also have had no mites involved with ANY reptile sale I have done ever. Also my rescues are mite free when they are placed into a new home too. I have never lost an animal due to a product that I have used for mites here either..SO what I use must be working and safe too.

[ClayEnglish]

Re: Question regarding Snake Mite Treatments

A good point that I made is in relation to quarantine.

Everyone should quarantine EVERY new addition to thier family, regardless of where it was purchased.

I consider Jeff and Pete to be at the very top of the game, yet I still quarantine their boas.

Just a reminder to always do so, and with a properly treated (mite free) enclosure is the best and only way to start.

[Doug]

Re: Question regarding Snake Mite Treatments

HI,
WHilest we are having fun with this subject, I have seen abnormal reactions in young (very young Ball pythons) to provent-a-mite.
 the animal scared the poo out of me he almost died.
 I let his cage dry for at least two hours and his water dish was not in the room and I put clean newspaper over the dried product and he stil had a neurological like reaction and started to have trouble righting himself ,, I think he may have been licking the powder off the cage in the corners hmmm tasty stuff .. duhhh.
     so always stay with a new animal and check frequently sometimes the pythons seem more sensative to chemicals. hey no one has pythons here any way right???
  now them boa's,, yawn never have a reaction to the provent-a-mite.. go figure.  just an observation with one little ball python i had   ..
  doug

[TSL]

Re: Question regarding Snake Mite Treatments

Great information all, thanks for all the viewpoints on this. My major concern is the health and welfare of the snakes. At least if sticking with PAM, and something happens I can go back to Pro-Products and have a case. Versus Sawyer's or Black Night... They aren't going to give a crap if it kills a snake, because they never claimed it could be used to treat enclosures for snake mites. I am leary of even using Olive Oil, as there have been snakes die from that treatment too... I guess all treatments are risky. Kinda scary, eh?

Doug... that's wierd... it had problems righting itself. That would scare the crap out of me too! Although I probably wouldn't associate it PAM right off... I'd be freaked out about IBD!!

Thanks again all.

[LORI]

Re: Question regarding Snake Mite Treatments

Although I probably wouldn't associate it PAM right off... I'd be freaked out about IBD!!

HMM.. WHY would you even think IBD in such a case going on with a snake ? If a chemical like PAm was just introduced into the snake's enclosure and then the snake acts like that after doing such. Would relate to the PAM ..NOT IBD. NOTE: It could have been due to not enough time passing before placing the snake back into it's enclosure after using the PAM. Also if you take a look at the testing on the PAM that was done.. I believe that you will also find just that type of reaction having taken place with the snakes that were directly exposed to the PAM also...