[Respiratory] Respitory - F10 nebulizer

[DiamondBoa]

Hi all,

So here's a quick background. I've had my Columbian boa, Diamond, for about 16 years now. Had her as a baby all the way up to this point. About 3 years ago, she developed a very light wheeze, signaling a possible respiratory problem. Brought her to the vet and they didn’t prescribe any medicine. I disinfected the entire tank as they had suggested, new husbandry, heightened the temps a bit and she’s been basically fine ever since. Once in a while, a light wheeze will still come from her, but no additional symptoms what so ever (even at this point as well). Eats fine, no bubbles, no mucus, none of the above except that minor wheeze once in a while.

Fast forward to two weeks ago, the wheeze is a bit more consistent. Also at times when watching her, very seldom, once in a blue moon, she would jolt as if she got shocked (there’s no electrical in her tank, so something internal?). I crank up the temps a bit (94 hot 80 cool) and brought her back to the vet. Again, no medicine. However, the vet had mentioned I should run a cycle of F10, creating a nebulizer for her. Two weeks, 20min fogger on smoking her out, then 20min resting in the smoke box. I am familiar with the process, so it was not new to me. I just had to acquire the proper setup (large plastic bin, repti-fogger and f10).

The thing is, after taking her out from the smoke box, she sounds horrible. Wheezing very loud, sounds like sputtering water. I can even feel the vibration through her body running the length of her lung. I’ve read this could possibly be the mucus breaking up? I almost feel like this is doing her worse given the condition when taking her out of the smoke box after the 20/20 treatment.

I also haven’t fed her during this treatment period and she is due. So I plan on her normal 2 rats once the cycle is over on Monday. The next day after treatment, the severity (how she sounds after taking her out of the smoke box) has decreased and she only has a minor wheeze. No skin caught around her nose from previous sheds or blockage that I could see.

Anyone have anything to share?

[acephantom903]

Re: Respitory - F10 nebulizer

Does the smoke box have vents? When I hear people mentioning wheezing, the first thing I think of is "Is there pressure on their lungs?" Boas are heavy bodied so when they bend over some things it presses the lungs and causes a slight wheeze. People who don't know snakes think that is hissing. The heavier a snake gets the more prominent this is.

Has she had any falls? Did you get x-rays of the upper body where the lungs are?

[Noelle7206]

Re: Respitory - F10 nebulizer

As acephantom903 just wrote, I too am wondering if she's overweight? especially since you mentioned feeding her 2 rats at a time (recommend feeding only one prey item of appropriate size...most pet boas are
overweight as their activity level is much lower than if they were living in nature, & extra pounds are no easier on them than on us).

I've never tried the F10 nebulizer method so I can't comment too much...even antibiotics (oral or injected) give mixed results, especially without lab work being done to identify the target.

I do think you ought to call & ask the vet about the "jolting"...that's odd...& bears further watching, as the cause needs to be narrowed down.

Did you have the vet check a fresh stool sample from her, or blood work? Snakes can get parasites (worms) which sometimes occupy their lungs & could also be causing her symptoms.

[DiamondBoa]

Re: Respitory - F10 nebulizer

Does the smoke box have vents? When I hear people mentioning wheezing, the first thing I think of is "Is there pressure on their lungs?" Boas are heavy bodied so when they bend over some things it presses the lungs and causes a slight wheeze. People who don't know snakes think that is hissing. The heavier a snake gets the more prominent this is.

Has she had any falls? Did you get x-rays of the upper body where the lungs are?

Great advice. It's true a lot of people don't know their snake, or snakes in general well enough to differentiate between hissing, wheezing or what have you. In this case, it’s certainly wheezing. These are good points you bring up about the pressure on the lungs. This could prove true in some instances, however…, to not sound as though I'm dismissing this, there’s many times when there would be no “direct” pressure on the lungs and she would wheeze.

I have not gotten x-rays and she may have had some falls. When handling her, she can tend to be what seems weak in her back half. If I’m sitting on the ground with her over my neck and she’s making her way off of me, her front half is on the ground with the back half following, there’s a point where her back end can plop on to the ground, as if she’s lacking strength or control. So if that's considered a fall, than yes. Outside of a small drop like that once in a blue moon, nothing more extreme than that.

The box does have holes drilled in the lid, but not very many.

[acephantom903]

Re: Respitory - F10 nebulizer

Maybe if you can record some video/audio and upload it in a way so we can hear it. x-rays might help identify if there is something going on around or in the lungs as well as blood work/stool samples like Noelle said. Back half falls aren't the best thing in the world but shouldn't have anything to do with lungs as the lungs are in the first third of the body. I think if you had a few holes in the lid that should be fine. Maybe a couple in the sides? Not sure. CO2 is heavier than air so maybe if it doesn't have room to escape that might be part of the reason for the exacerbated wheezing but it might also have no affect.

Hopefully others have helpful ideas.

[Noelle7206]

Re: Respitory - F10 nebulizer

Actually, that bit about lower body weakness might mean she has some broken ribs, spinal damage or both...& that could explain the jolting...she might be having sudden pain when she moves a certain way. I'd be very
careful not to allow her lower half to droop or be unsupported. Have you described this to the vet? I would think an X-ray is in order. Don't know what to tell you about the wheezing though.

[DiamondBoa]

Re: Respitory - F10 nebulizer

As acephantom903 just wrote, I too am wondering if she's overweight? especially since you mentioned feeding her 2 rats at a time (recommend feeding only one prey item of appropriate size...most pet boas are
overweight as their activity level is much lower than if they were living in nature, & extra pounds are no easier on them than on us).

I've never tried the F10 nebulizer method so I can't comment too much...even antibiotics (oral or injected) give mixed results, especially without lab work being done to identify the target.

I do think you ought to call & ask the vet about the "jolting"...that's odd...& bears further watching, as the cause needs to be narrowed down.

Did you have the vet check a fresh stool sample from her, or blood work? Snakes can get parasites (worms) which sometimes occupy their lungs & could also be causing her symptoms.

I really like where you’ve went with this and there may be something here. I’ve bumped her up to 2 large rats and she’s become considerably heavier since (obviously). Thickened up nicely too. I chose 2 large rats over a jumbo to get slightly lower overall fat content. I’m going to switch to 1 large rat and get her on the treadmill I’ll get a before and after weight as well so I may be able to tie it to that.

Yeah the jolt would almost be like if we were to quickly shake a chill off of us. From what I’ve gathered it can be neurological, but that’s opening a potential end with no sight.

That’s an interesting note about parasites potentially occupying the lungs. I did present a stool sample and it came back clean. However, certainly open to second opinions and may start to explore this option. On that note, she defecates regularly after eating, most of the time twice.

[DiamondBoa]

Re: Respitory - F10 nebulizer

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[DiamondBoa]

Re: Respitory - F10 nebulizer

Maybe if you can record some video/audio and upload it in a way so we can hear it. x-rays might help identify if there is something going on around or in the lungs as well as blood work/stool samples like Noelle said. Back half falls aren't the best thing in the world but shouldn't have anything to do with lungs as the lungs are in the first third of the body. I think if you had a few holes in the lid that should be fine. Maybe a couple in the sides? Not sure. CO2 is heavier than air so maybe if it doesn't have room to escape that might be part of the reason for the exacerbated wheezing but it might also have no affect.

Hopefully others have helpful ideas.

Your input is again valued and this may be the next course of action. X-rays, blood, stool sample. Run the course again, just a bit more in depth this time around and see what's going on. The wheezing has never grown worse (except following f10 treatment as mentioned) or coupled by additional symptoms as mentioned in my original post, so this has always steered me from thinking it was RI. So this may point to her weight and or another issue causing these noises. Audio shouldn't be too much of an issue to provide. I'll see what I can do and report back. I'll also get some more holes in the smoke house. The thought was to maybe not let too much escape, but given it's continuously pumping, it shouldn't be much of an issue to keep the box filled.

[DiamondBoa]

Re: Respitory - F10 nebulizer

Actually, that bit about lower body weakness might mean she has some broken ribs, spinal damage or both...& that could explain the jolting...she might be having sudden pain when she moves a certain way. I'd be very
careful not to allow her lower half to droop or be unsupported. Have you described this to the vet? I would think an X-ray is in order. Don't know what to tell you about the wheezing though.

To support your theory, I would be curious how this would have happened if this were the case. She is old. Pushing 20 years. Any lower end fall she's had is maybe bout 8-12" from the ground and I wouldn't think to be detrimental. However, are their bones that delicate where a small back end drop may have caused a problem she as broken ribs/spine? She seems very well/healthy in all aspects and doesn't display signs of broken bones when handling her (assuming I would be able to read what those signs would be). Indeed I am very careful, there just may be a time where the slip catches me off guard. No more handling in that fashion if there's a "chance" for it to happen again though, I'll modify this. I have not spoke with the vet about this. Another visit, possibly to a new vet may be in order. For a full wellness checkup, potential blood, stool and xray. I would imagine this would not be cheap?

[Noelle7206]

Re: Respitory - F10 nebulizer

To support your theory, I would be curious how this would have happened if this were the case. She is old. Pushing 20 years. Any lower end fall she's had is maybe bout 8-12" from the ground and I wouldn't think to be detrimental. However, are their bones that delicate where a small back end drop may have caused a problem she as broken ribs/spine? She seems very well/healthy in all aspects and doesn't display signs of broken bones when handling her (assuming I would be able to read what those signs would be). Indeed I am very careful, there just may be a time where the slip catches me off guard. No more handling in that fashion if there's a "chance" for it to happen again though, I'll modify this. I have not spoke with the vet about this. Another visit, possibly to a new vet may be in order. For a full wellness checkup, potential blood, stool and xray. I would imagine this would not be cheap?

Maybe an old injury of which you were not aware...how old was she when you got her? Many snakes have been pulled out of a couch cushion or other 'refuge' and often we apply more force than we realize...
same goes for taking them off a branch they're holding onto tightly. Sometimes they injure themselves when wedging into & through tight spaces, falls are another possibility. And then there's age...I don't think
there's any vets that specialize in snake geriatrics, but I'm pretty sure they get old just as we do, which means their spine is subject to dislocations and arthritis...and just like us, IF they are overweight, that makes
all this stuff worse, and just like us, they're not all created equally from the start. Suppose a snake doesn't have such good digestion (either due to age or to individual differences?) so maybe they fail to absorb as
much calcium as their bones need, thus they are at greater risk. Injuries happen all sorts of ways & at all ages. Just like us, if their spine is out of whack, it can press on nerves that control the strength in her lower
body or cause pain, and again, if she's overweight, it makes this worse. If your arm was hurting, would you want to throw some fast-balls or climb a tree with all your might?

We humans need vitamin D to utilize the calcium in our diet...and to actually make enough from the sun, we'd actually need to be outside in very skimpy attire for a fair amount of time, so many of us take supplements.
Our own doctors used to tell us not to take very much vitamin D, as they thought it was toxic, but now, years later, they tell us to take far more because they now say we need it for many things, & if you get blood work,
it's now common to get your level tested. The point I'm making is that there isn't similar research being done for snakes...in their natural world, they'd get lot's of sunshine, but in cages they do not. Maybe their bones
can get weak? I do recommend at least occasional sun exposure for your snakes...but only when you are right there with them & never let them get too hot, as they certainly can die from heat strokes, & very easily if
they're stuck in a cage in the sun. Sadly, there was a local guy who kept walking around town here with his big boa on his shoulders...until one day, it died from sun stroke. Snakes have a hard time communicating their
pain or discomfort to us, & that guy had no clue until it was too late for his poor snake.

[acephantom903]

Re: Respitory - F10 nebulizer

The thought was to maybe not let too much escape, but given it's continuously pumping, it shouldn't be much of an issue to keep the box filled.

The purpose is to not let much escape but do realize this is a very similar setup to how we euthanize rats. Only difference is it is a F10 solution mixed with atmosphere as opposed to pure CO2. I'm just worried about enough airflow for her. Snakes do need only very little oxygen in the environment which is why we can do this treatment method, but too little can be bad. Usually not being able to breath out is what causes panicked breathing, so that probably isn't the issue here.

This is a learning experience for all of us.

As for the food size, you can buy 400-450 gram rabbits from certain suppliers. Healthier than jumbo rats while being the proper amount of nutrition. More expensive though.

[Noelle7206]

Re: Respitory - F10 nebulizer

Again, since your vet suggested the F10 fogger, there's nothing wrong with calling him/her to let them know how it went & ask more questions.

You don't smoke around your snake, do you? Do you live in a smoggy area? What about the substrate used in her cage? Any mold??? What kind of cage is she housed in? (what's it made of? -I ask that because there

have been people who unknowingly housed snakes in cages that gave off toxic fumes, like from refinishing wood, etc, so I'd have to guess that might also cause wheezing in a snake.)

[marya1962]

Re: Respitory - F10 nebulizer

With the idea that snakes rely on only one lung, which makes it critical to find out what's going on with it, I am highly surprised there was no x-ray series done. I'm also concerned there was no culture taken or bloodwork or anything. There should have been antibiotics prescribed because the lung is only going to fill up without something major being used. I'd go to a second opinion vet. Call your herp rescue society to find one or get on Facebook boa groups and ask for recommended in your area. Soon, or it probably will be too late.

Sent from my SM-G530P using Tapatalk

[Noelle7206]

Re: Respitory - F10 nebulizer

In response to post #10-
And since you asked about what might cause her apparent weakness in her lower body & regarding the possible contribution to neurological or bone issues, something else crossed my mind: in humans, they now

know that our bones (as well as our muscles) stay stronger when we are more active with "weight-bearing" exercise...so I don't think it's a stretch to say that more exercise is probably good for our snakes too,

would you? Most of our beloved pets lay around in "luxury" compared to those in the wild...but what if we're doing them no physical favors with so much inactivity? Just something to think about...I wouldn't wait

for a government study on that either, lol...

As for the cost of a vet visit & other tests, costs can vary quite a bit by different providers, and by whatever area you are in. Ask around.