[Mites] PAM sprayed paper towels ok to mist, but if water spills?

[SpaceLizard]

Hey everyone, treated everything with PAM as I chronicled in another thread, alls looking good, but today I re-introduced the water bowls and shortly after, 2 snakes decided to tip their water bowls -.-

I know misting is fine but if the paper towels get soaked is that a problem?

I usually let the paper towels dry on their own or help it along with a few presses of a towel, but if the PAM sprayed paper towels are an issue I'll chuck it and lay down freshly sprayed PAM paper towel.

Thanks for any advice / assistance, you guys are great!

[acephantom903]

Re: PAM sprayed paper towels ok to mist, but if water spills?

I'm not sure if that is an issue but I'm inclined to say that it isn't an issue. One thing you can do is prep new bedding by spraying a whole stack of it and letting it dry. When bedding needs to be replaced, you can just put in a new one and not have to wait the drying period.

[SpaceLizard]

Re: PAM sprayed paper towels ok to mist, but if water spills?

I'm not sure if that is an issue but I'm inclined to say that it isn't an issue. One thing you can do is prep new bedding by spraying a whole stack of it and letting it dry. When bedding needs to be replaced, you can just put in a new one and not have to wait the drying period.

Yeah I just did that last night and used a whole tone of PAM. Thankfully I am going to a reptile expo on the 28th where I'll be getting some feeders and a new can of PAM

[acephantom903]

Re: PAM sprayed paper towels ok to mist, but if water spills?

None of the vendors at my expo offers PAM. I have to order it online. I bulk order it with other keepers to reduce shipping cost. 4 of us use it. Two of them have 50+ animals and the other has 30 animals. I have one so I don't need quite as much.

[SpaceLizard]

Re: PAM sprayed paper towels ok to mist, but if water spills?

None of the vendors at my expo offers PAM. I have to order it online. I bulk order it with other keepers to reduce shipping cost. 4 of us use it. Two of them have 50+ animals and the other has 30 animals. I have one so I don't need quite as much.

Wow, they really should offer it for sale lol. Especially since expos are magnets for mite transmission.

Another question: when you feed the Boa(s), if one of them starts swallowing a clump of treated paper towel, is that alarming?

I ask because my little one ate his first meal before the treatment and somehow managed to start eating a clump of paper towel.. I managed to get him to drop it but now that it's been treated, I worry he'll do the same thing.

[acephantom903]

Re: PAM sprayed paper towels ok to mist, but if water spills?

Eating paper towels in general is fatal. They can't digest plant material. You might have to figure out an alternate feeding solution. I use kraft paper which they cannot snag their teeth on, but too expensive for people with more than one animal.

[NoNameXII]

Re: PAM sprayed paper towels ok to mist, but if water spills?

For what it's worth, I feed on large paper/foam plates (like you would use at a picnic) to help reduce the chances of my snakes eating substrate with their food (aspen for me). Idk if this is useful...

But yes, seeing pictures of snakes that have eaten paper towels is pretty horrifying.

[Noelle7206]

Re: PAM sprayed paper towels ok to mist, but if water spills?

I would honestly be concerned about a snake ingesting a significant* piece of paper towel AND also ingesting ANY paper that's been treated with PAM (or similar pesticides) as that's a neurotoxic poison, ya?
And it's never supposed to contact the snake as a liquid...swallowing is certainly 'contact' but they shouldn't be laying on wet treated paper towels because snakes CAN ABSORB thru their skin. Watch your
snake(s) for signs of neurotoxicity & get them to a vet for treatment if it's suspected. Things like inability to grip, or shakiness. Snakes have been killed by exposure to PAM, fyi.

*What determines whether the paper itself is significant will depend upon the size of the snake: snakes (wild OR captive) sometimes consume small amounts of things they cannot digest...including some of
the hair & bones of their natural prey. That's where snake-poop comes from, lol... But undigested paper can wad up & cause a gastrointestinal impaction, besides the risk from the PAM itself.

In most of my cages I line the bottom with layered paper towels, then spread a cushy layer of clean cross-cut paper shreds (formerly known as mail) mixed with Carefresh. I do feed my snakes on "plates"
of some kind where needed (most eat right from tongs) & none has ever eaten a paper towel, or portion thereof, but now & then I'm sure a few have consumed a small paper shred or bit of Carefresh, with no
ill-effects. But those are quite small & would pass harmlessly as waste...not enough to cause a blockage...and similar to a bit of leaf matter being ingested in nature.

The big question is how much paper was ingested...and how big is the snake that did so??? I'm glad he didn't consume any treated paper THIS time, but you must prevent it in the future.

Also: you never want a snake laying around for very long on WET substrate (with or without PAM), as this promotes skin blisters & other diseases which may be difficult to treat. As soon as you see a dumped
water bowl, you need to change out all the wet substrate. It's like leaving a baby in a wet dirty diaper....

Suggestion: since you currently need to use PAM, make sure you don't use ANY bowls that CAN be tipped over. They make them, but you need to buy & use them. They'll "pay for themselves" anyway,
when you have fewer flash-floods to clean up.

[acephantom903]

Re: PAM sprayed paper towels ok to mist, but if water spills?

I agree with [MENTION=5796]noelle[/MENTION] that no-spill bowls are a good investment. I just bought 2 metal today as the current plastic one is damaged. Pretty much any bowl with the base wider than the top is considered no-spill.

[Noelle7206]

Re: PAM sprayed paper towels ok to mist, but if water spills?

I agree with @noelle that no-spill bowls are a good investment. I just bought 2 metal today as the current plastic one is damaged. Pretty much any bowl with the base wider than the top is considered no-spill.

Yes, you can use the wider-bottom type (like they make for dogs) or straight-sided HEAVY glass or ceramic bowls with flat bottoms. (hint: you can often find them cheaply in thrift stores...many bowls made for humans work great!)

OR: you can use a square flat-bottom plastic container in which to SET a larger bowl that has slanted sides & which a snake could otherwise tip. I do this with my 7' rat snakes, they are quite strong & pushy at times, but they cannot
tip their huge glass 'salad' bowls because they're sitting in a shallow square plastic container that once held frozen eclairs... You don't have to spend a fortune on new bowls that won't tip...you just need to get slightly creative.

[SpaceLizard]

Re: PAM sprayed paper towels ok to mist, but if water spills?

Thanks for all the info everyone, so basically I went to the dollar store and bought a bunch of low laying, shallow water bowls, went outside and got some good sized rocks, cleaned them and put them in the water bowls. Did the trick haha no spills since.

About them laying on damp substrate with PAM, I do my best to dry it. I usually (when it was happening) would take a towel and press it hard on the paper towel and absorb as much moisture as possible. Now since it's only spraying that gets the paper too wet I don't have to do that too often.

Anyways to the main issue, if PAM on the paper towels is harmful if they get wet, not sure what to do lol. Have to spray pretty heavily since most are in shed from the mites so the paper almost always gets wet to some degree. Haven't noticed any ill effects but, from now on I'll just spray the sides and the back of the enclosure.

[acephantom903]

Re: PAM sprayed paper towels ok to mist, but if water spills?

When the pesticide is wet (and in the air) it will go to water and poison water which is why water is removed from the cage before you spray it. When it has dried, it is spread mostly evenly as a unnoticable powder which is how it works. When water gets the powder wet, it dilutes the powder so it isn't more dangerous than it normally would be. However noticeably wet bedding can cause sores and scale rot and other issues which is why you don't want them to lay on wet bedding.

[Noelle7206]

Re: PAM sprayed paper towels ok to mist, but if water spills?

...
About them laying on damp substrate with PAM, I do my best to dry it. I usually (when it was happening) would take a towel and press it hard on the paper towel and absorb as much moisture as possible. Now since it's only spraying that gets the paper too wet I don't have to do that too often.

Anyways to the main issue, if PAM on the paper towels is harmful if they get wet, not sure what to do lol. Have to spray pretty heavily since most are in shed from the mites so the paper almost always gets wet to some degree. Haven't noticed any ill effects but, from now on I'll just spray the sides and the back of the enclosure.

I've not had to use PAM (thankfully!) but it's crucial that you follow the instructions to the letter: as I understand it (& I don't have a label in front of me to read from) you are supposed to treat the cage and not return
the snake until it's totally dry. As far as I can tell you are risking the health & life of your snake to allow contact with anything that was treated & is now damp again (for whatever reason, water spill, etc) because as I
said before, snakes can ABSORB chemicals thru their skin. (so do we...) Treating the substrate (paper towels) should be fine, but they must remain dry or the snake removed until they are.

Good idea on the water bowls. Keeping snakes is good for your creativity...

[SpaceLizard]

Re: PAM sprayed paper towels ok to mist, but if water spills?

So is a good solution to just spray the walls and back of cage?

[Noelle7206]

Re: PAM sprayed paper towels ok to mist, but if water spills?

So is a good solution to just spray the walls and back of cage?

Don't know how bad your mites are, whether that's enough?...and what do the directions on the product say?