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Dogs ,Wolves , Problems ???

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  • #31
    Re: Dogs ,Wolves , Problems ???

    I'll give you one thing brother, you sure are thorough. "Research" isn't lost on you when it comes to a topic that you are passionate about. Even a cold hearted ultra right winger like myself can appreciate the value in that.

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    • #32
      Re: Dogs ,Wolves , Problems ???

      Very interesting Lar. I thought wolves killed more than that since they are in packs. Then again, with the remaining few there are, those numbers make more sence.

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      • #33
        Re: Dogs ,Wolves , Problems ???

        WOW...took me a while to read all of it...but WOW.

        Now here is something that might start something good or bad...

        But does any one care for the Moose that the wolves are eating?

        Just a question.
        Ernest



        www.magikboas2011.wix.com/home Where you will find Available Boas to my Magik BBQ Sauce!

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        • #34
          Re: Dogs ,Wolves , Problems ???

          Originally posted by BigPaPaErnest View Post
          WOW...took me a while to read all of it...but WOW.

          Now here is something that might start something good or bad...

          But does any one care for the Moose that the wolves are eating?

          Just a question.
          E what are you trying to start? lol honestly if that Moose was someones pet then that person is an idiot for letting the moose run free in the woods... lol

          Melissa

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          • #35
            Re: Dogs ,Wolves , Problems ???

            Originally posted by mbraun3 View Post
            E what are you trying to start? lol honestly if that Moose was someones pet then that person is an idiot for letting the moose run free in the woods... lol

            Melissa

            Does it "need" to be a pet for someone to care about them?...not trying to start anything, but just seems that we "only" care for those things that are "ours" and not those things that "live".
            Ernest



            www.magikboas2011.wix.com/home Where you will find Available Boas to my Magik BBQ Sauce!

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            • #36
              Re: Dogs ,Wolves , Problems ???

              Originally posted by BigPaPaErnest View Post
              Does it "need" to be a pet for someone to care about them?...not trying to start anything, but just seems that we "only" care for those things that are "ours" and not those things that "live".
              if we cared about everything that lived you would have to stay off the grass and stop feeding your snakes rats and all sorts of other ridiculous things...

              Melissa

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              • #37
                Re: Dogs ,Wolves , Problems ???

                i give...nevermind i said anything
                Ernest



                www.magikboas2011.wix.com/home Where you will find Available Boas to my Magik BBQ Sauce!

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                • #38
                  Re: Dogs ,Wolves , Problems ???

                  Lar, those numbers are low, and I'll explain why. They show only the confirmed wolf kills. The guidelines used to confirm its a wolf kill are very strict. In Idaho alone in the course of 1 year there have been near 900 projected wolf kills, thats just the livestock. The damage they are doing to the deer, elk, moose, and turkey populations is another story.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Dogs ,Wolves , Problems ???

                    Originally posted by BigPaPaErnest View Post
                    i give...nevermind i said anything

                    You are right, the wolves are doing serious damage to game animals, that largely goes unnoticed.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Dogs ,Wolves , Problems ???

                      Some interesting info to read:
                      at a glance
                      Wolf predation on moose—a case study using hunter observations | Alces | Find Articles at BNET
                      The challenge in a wolf’s life is to get enough food to survive another season.
                      While a wolf is able to live for 12 years, most die before their 4th birthday. The most common causes of death are starvation and being killed by other wolves.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Dogs ,Wolves , Problems ???

                        Originally posted by BigPaPaErnest View Post
                        WOW...took me a while to read all of it...but WOW.

                        Now here is something that might start something good or bad...

                        But does any one care for the Moose that the wolves are eating?

                        Just a question.
                        We care for the Moose,the Moose population is quite strong. Although the Moose Population would be much stronger if pressure placed upon by man wasn't so heavy. See this is the real issue. People don't need Moose Deer or Elk to survive. They just enjoy shooting them.We have plenty of cattle to eat. So when the Wolf or Cougar or Bear predates on these animals and more so of course the Wolf People get upset because these people have less animals to kill for themselves. If they want to kill something they should raise cattle and sit up in a tree and shoot them. Although they wouldn't feel like a big hunter then. The only hunters I have any respect for are Bow hunters.
                        I've run off track here though. My point is this Wolves do place pressure on the Moose population . Not enough pressure to hurt over all numbers until man is placed in the equation. Who has more need and rights to Moose us /man or Wildlife Wolves, Bears, Cougars.
                        Plus on a side note talk to someone who knows Moose are every bit as mean as Wolves ,they'll run you down and kill you in second. They are not defenseless.
                        . . . . . Lar M

                        Lar M
                        Boas By Klevitz

                        sigpic

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                        • #42
                          Re: Dogs ,Wolves , Problems ???

                          Originally posted by DtRooster View Post
                          Lar, those numbers are low, and I'll explain why. They show only the confirmed wolf kills. The guidelines used to confirm its a wolf kill are very strict. In Idaho alone in the course of 1 year there have been near 900 projected wolf kills, thats just the livestock. The damage they are doing to the deer, elk, moose, and turkey populations is another story.
                          Right those numbers from the USDA maybe a little low. So the other depredation numbers from Coyote ,Bear Cougar,"DOGs" would also be slightly low . Although those numbers show that Wolves are the lowest threat. Coyote being the largest. Plus more Cattle/sheep are lost to to digestive problems: 7,700 , birthing problems: 7,800 and 1 that should be able to be countered respiratory disease: 8,700. I believe most Ranchers try to birth all Calves themselves as well. Maybe that number would and should be lower with medical professional help. My point here is if Wolves take ten times as many cattle as the numbers say(and they don't).The number is actually possibly 5.7% higher . They would still be taking less then are lost from respiratory disease alone. I know the USDA wouldn't allow numbers to be far from the truth. This is the "USDA" were talking about numbers provided by "NASS". Not to mention the people who identify these kills are very good at what they. These are forensic professional Biologist who identify these kills. I do know that probably 1/3 of Bear kills are never found to be identified as well.So that's 33% higher number. I for one say the Elk and Deer are there for Wolves to eat. I think coyote take a large toll on Wild population. I know around here they kill are turkey and Pheasant. Man has all the food he needs in the USA. I'm often to harsh on hunting it is a good sport and has many benefits to the animal populations. I'd probably still hunt Pheasant if there were any left to hunt. The numbers are out there is what my point is. They prove that Wolves put far less pressure on live stock number 1 then any thing else.What they do take once again "confirmed"(could be 5.7% higher)they are reimbursed for. Should be no complaints about the Wolf period.

                          One thing I'm obviously all about documentation. I believe if I say something I need to back it up with real numbers. I like see this from other people as well it helps support your view.
                          Even more so I'm really happy that we can have this discussion with out it eroding into some sort of childish name calling event.
                          I completely respect you DtRooster, your opinion and point of view. You & people like you have valid concerns. I'm just hoping when you see these completely real and true numbers you start to understand, that Wolves are not the threat they have been made out to be. I believe a smear campaign has been run against Wolves with alot of false unscientifically backed information run on TV ads etc... Alot of this biased rhetoric reaches many ears and is very convincing, although very untrue. Thanks for the great discussion though DtRooster I think its enjoyable.

                          . . . . Lar M

                          Lar M
                          Boas By Klevitz

                          sigpic

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                          • #43
                            Re: Dogs ,Wolves , Problems ???

                            i dont agree with people hunting just to kill... what ever Brandon kills we eat and some times for example the ducks... we eat those and get them stuffed so were not throwing things away... most hunters keep horns instead of throwing them away... i agree with using as much of the animal as possible... not the whole shoot to thrill thing... besides whit... lol for most hunters one deer or moose will last them a while... you dont need to go shoot any more than that...

                            Melissa

                            Edit: Brandon doesnt do much deer or elk hunting most of the time its ducks rabbits frogs and stuff like that... lol so we dont really stuff the frogs and rabbits... lol

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                            • #44
                              Re: Dogs ,Wolves , Problems ???

                              Originally posted by Boa Amarali View Post
                              We care for the Moose,the Moose population is quite strong. Although the Moose Population would be much stronger if pressure placed upon by man wasn't so heavy. See this is the real issue. People don't need Moose Deer or Elk to survive. They just enjoy shooting them.We have plenty of cattle to eat. So when the Wolf or Cougar or Bear predates on these animals and more so of course the Wolf People get upset because these people have less animals to kill for themselves. If they want to kill something they should raise cattle and sit up in a tree and shoot them. Although they wouldn't feel like a big hunter then. The only hunters I have any respect for are Bow hunters.
                              I've run off track here though. My point is this Wolves do place pressure on the Moose population . Not enough pressure to hurt over all numbers until man is placed in the equation. Who has more need and rights to Moose us /man or Wildlife Wolves, Bears, Cougars.
                              Plus on a side note talk to someone who knows Moose are every bit as mean as Wolves ,they'll run you down and kill you in second. They are not defenseless.
                              . . . . . Lar M
                              It is clear to me you do not understand hunters or the positive effect they have on the health of big game herds. You will not find a hunter that has a problem with bear and cougar. Their numbers are kept in balance by hunters. Wolf numbers are not. I've seen what wolves do to big game herds, to say they dont have a negative effect is absolutely wrong. A moose is no match for a hungry wolf pack. Mattciupak quoted something about wolves dying from starvation and being killed by other wolves. Thats not because there are to few wolves, thats because there are to many wolves in a given area. They kill off all the food, and are being killed by competing wolf packs or starve to death. Regulating wolf numbers is healthy for all species involved. Its easy to blame man, but I would argue man is a necessary part of a healthy food chain.

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                              • #45
                                Re: Dogs ,Wolves , Problems ???

                                Originally posted by DtRooster View Post
                                It is clear to me you do not understand hunters or the positive effect they have on the health of big game herds. You will not find a hunter that has a problem with bear and cougar. Their numbers are kept in balance by hunters. Wolf numbers are not. I've seen what wolves do to big game herds, to say they dont have a negative effect is absolutely wrong. A moose is no match for a hungry wolf pack. Mattciupak quoted something about wolves dying from starvation and being killed by other wolves. Thats not because there are to few wolves, thats because there are to many wolves in a given area. They kill off all the food, and are being killed by competing wolf packs or starve to death. Regulating wolf numbers is healthy for all species involved. Its easy to blame man, but I would argue man is a necessary part of a healthy food chain.
                                lol this might sound a little messed up but man controls our own numbers... lol we have people killing other people all the time but not to survive but he does have a point here... lol everything does better when numbers are controlled...

                                Melissa

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